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BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
#1056053
08/18/11 11:41 AM
08/18/11 11:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
Thumperdart
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Is it worth it and how much does it cost? Too early to call Pettis and I`m off to work..........thankxxx  Thankxxx guys just got in from helping a friend prep/paint a house and it`s NOT FUN in this desert heat that`s for sure.  So, how do they/me pre-check em to see where their at? This is one of those deals that can escalate quickly money wise......next thing I`m gettin different heads etc. I`ll ask Jason what`s up and go from there cos $$$`s tight, I`m moving(again)and just want my 9.78 et then I`m cool for a long time............no, really. 
Last edited by Thumperdart; 08/19/11 01:20 AM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1056054
08/18/11 01:05 PM
08/18/11 01:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,608
fresno ca
mikeysmopars
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,608
fresno ca
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Hey thumper, Mine were $500.00 installed, They say it makes the lifter alignment true.  Mike
Founder and CEO of the Central Valley Mopar Drag Pack
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1056056
08/18/11 01:51 PM
08/18/11 01:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Depends on the cam you are running, very mild and you will probably never notice the differance, even a dyno would have a hard time telling the differance, if you are running a big cam you will probably notice more differance, if you are running a very agressive flat tappet with mopar specific lobes I would conside it a must have. A lifter bore a degree or two out can keep the lifter from rotateing or cause the lobe to hit the side of the lifter, either way can flatten a lobe real quick. If you are reuseing a cam and lifters that was already in the engine it could also cause the lobes to go flat as they were broken in already with the wrong angles and now being corrected could cause more issues, sort of like mixing up the lifters.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1056057
08/18/11 02:14 PM
08/18/11 02:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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My opinion is as Dave kind of said, depends on your block. If they are already real close then there isn't going to be much difference. If they are off a significant amount you may see gains but probably slight.
I've run a big Hughes flat tappet in 2 different blocks with the same lifters and never had a problem, others have.
BTW I've never yet bushed lifters in any of my engines but I haven't built a lot of them like a performance machine shop would, just my own personal engines.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1056058
08/18/11 02:23 PM
08/18/11 02:23 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Think about it this way...Run a roller, forget it. Run a flat tappet and sure..it will make a few HP maybe 10 or so--and prevent lifter / cam wear problems but...the added cost could cover a rollers expense. Many of the old blocks we have available have lifter bores that are worn to the point that flat tappet success is a crapshoot--too loose on the lifter bore and you get trouble--throw a roller in and who cares--it will run great, no issues except maybe a little oil pressure loss but no big deal--no worse than needle bearing rockers etc. I only do it if I need to repair a valuable block. Run a roller and forget about the bushings. It cost alot because it is a big job and takes more time than you might imagine.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: ]
#1056059
08/18/11 04:06 PM
08/18/11 04:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Dom, If you want your cam timing to be exactly the same from cylinder to cylinder it needs to be done in a stock block. They are all over the place. I won't put a motor together for performance without bushing the lifter bores be it a flat tappet or roller. Everyone wants their pistons @ the same deck height, rods the same length and the stroke on the crank equalized not to mention having all the cam lobes the same. So think about the 16 different angles the lifters are are seeing in relation to the cam. More power than most would think but JMO and 
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1056061
08/18/11 05:28 PM
08/18/11 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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This is one of those mods that seem to cause a lot of polarity in opinions. Ya' got the "Not worth the money!" side and the "Don't build a race engine without 'em!" crew.  My justification for having my 452 block bushed was because a wiped cam incident resulted in so much junk getting 'tween the lifters and the bores that the bores were scored. In this case, it was done to "fix" the lifter bores during the subsequent rebuild. My 451 block does not have bushed bores, partly because I don't know that it needs 'em and partly because there aren't any local shops to my knowledge that are equipped to even do the job. If it had already been done as part of those CNC'd block prep jobs, great. But having it done now as another expense during a regular freshen-up job seems harder to justify, at least IMO.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1056063
08/18/11 07:51 PM
08/18/11 07:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss 
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/18/11 09:39 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: dartman366]
#1056065
08/18/11 11:02 PM
08/18/11 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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i just bushed a brand new R-3 block for a customer. one bank was really good regarding angle and location of the bores. as i recall, all of them on that bank were within .005" of the bluprint spec. that's actually pretty good. the problem started on the opposite side when we found the whole bank was bored at 57 degree's instead of 59 degree's. i'm not even sure how that could happen. i had to order extra thick bushings to be able to correct it though. when it comes to stock blocks, i've had some that were "okay" for the most part and others that were way out of whack in every regard. one thing i can tell you though, correcting bores that are off in angle, or just plain worn out is definately worth horsepower, probably more than you might think. we also routinely see blocks that have the cylinders bored at all kinds of different angles other than the 45 degree's they're supposed to be. these new CNC block machines like what we use show up all of the previously commited machining sins. i think any time you can correct the geometry of cylinders and lifter bores, among other things, your going to make more power and have a longer lasting and more reliable engine.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Performance Only]
#1056066
08/19/11 12:17 AM
08/19/11 12:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
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Correcting the lifter bore with bronze bushings should be part of the blueprinting process and the labor to do so is paid.Too many people "cheap out" thinking it's not needed.I'll also add that the CNC machine is the way to go.Sure some of the machine shops still use the old style fixture that has worked for years but,,,,,,,,,,,,the CNC machine is the way to go  
HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1056067
08/19/11 12:44 AM
08/19/11 12:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
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Never done it and managed to make big, reliable hp. But this was always with a B or RB platform which had excellent VT geometry to start with.
8.30's @3400 lbs
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1056072
08/19/11 10:32 AM
08/19/11 10:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss
IMO that's is the only real reason to do this assuming the stock bores aren't worn out.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1056074
08/19/11 11:09 AM
08/19/11 11:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss
Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?
Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.
Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?
I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: roadhazard]
#1056075
08/19/11 01:22 PM
08/19/11 01:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss
Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?
Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.
Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?
I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time
I did that stock block to correct the angles( thye probally where okay, I didn't check the angles, they had .0025 + clearances then) and insure that I wouldn't loose oil pressure if the lifters came out. I have check cam lobes on both #1 and #6, you don't have to move the degree wheel to keep TDC in the same place , and found a bad cam grind when I had it check on a cam Doctor
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: roadhazard]
#1056077
08/19/11 08:55 PM
08/19/11 08:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Quote:
Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss
Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?
Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.
Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?
I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time
I did mine when I assembled the new shortblock just because I was curious and it wasn't off but maybe .5 degree. Were any others off? I don't know but that's pretty darn close for an old Crane grind if you ask me.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: Cudajon]
#1056079
08/20/11 08:24 AM
08/20/11 08:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
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Quote:
This thread is jogging a bit of remembered tech from back in the 70's. When and only when, running a roller cam some guys would bush the Mopar lifter bore .904 to chevy .842 so they could use a lighter and cheaper chevy roller lifter. The wider base circle of the mopar didn't really make much difeerence with a roller lifter. Anybody else remember this?
I would be interested to see if anyone on here has done this. When I asked my machine shop about this they said why would you do this when chev guys take theirs out to .904 size. I have not found a chev guy yet running anything but .842.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: mac56]
#1056080
08/20/11 10:20 AM
08/20/11 10:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 293
Kansas City Metro
mbogina
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 293
Kansas City Metro
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The correction of geometry, decrease in wear, improvement in alignment- those are all great reasons to bush the lifter bores, but the biggest reason I have is for the oil control. Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.
Be a Rebel- Break the Laws of Physics!
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: LA360]
#1056083
08/21/11 02:15 AM
08/21/11 02:15 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 49
Sterling Heights, MI
MCHBOB
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 49
Sterling Heights, MI
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Quote:
Quote:
A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.
Is he having Key Way lifters fitted?
Thats what iam thinking JESEL keyway bushings are 35ish each
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: MCHBOB]
#1056084
08/21/11 01:39 PM
08/21/11 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
Darryls-Demon
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.
Is he having Key Way lifters fitted?
Thats what iam thinking JESEL keyway bushings are 35ish each
No they are standard bushings. He will be using Crower lifters.
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Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............
[Re: mbogina]
#1056085
08/22/11 06:50 AM
08/22/11 06:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
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Quote:
Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.
I have primed without valley pan and it was frightening how much oil comes out around the bottom of the lifter.
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101%
