Moparts

BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK.............

Posted By: Thumperdart

BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 03:41 PM

Is it worth it and how much does it cost? Too early to call Pettis and I`m off to work..........thankxxx Thankxxx guys just got in from helping a friend prep/paint a house and it`s NOT FUN in this desert heat that`s for sure. So, how do they/me pre-check em to see where their at? This is one of those deals that can escalate quickly money wise......next thing I`m gettin different heads etc. I`ll ask Jason what`s up and go from there cos $$$`s tight, I`m moving(again)and just want my 9.78 et then I`m cool for a long time............no, really.
Posted By: mikeysmopars

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 05:05 PM

Hey thumper, Mine were $500.00 installed, They say it makes the lifter alignment true.
Mike

Attached picture 6784048-Burnoutsanoma.jpg
Posted By: 1967dartgt

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 05:20 PM

Mine were 400..
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 05:51 PM

Depends on the cam you are running, very mild and you will probably never notice the differance, even a dyno would have a hard time telling the differance, if you are running a big cam you will probably notice more differance, if you are running a very agressive flat tappet with mopar specific lobes I would conside it a must have. A lifter bore a degree or two out can keep the lifter from rotateing or cause the lobe to hit the side of the lifter, either way can flatten a lobe real quick. If you are reuseing a cam and lifters that was already in the engine it could also cause the lobes to go flat as they were broken in already with the wrong angles and now being corrected could cause more issues, sort of like mixing up the lifters.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 06:14 PM

My opinion is as Dave kind of said, depends on your block. If they are already real close then there isn't going to be much difference. If they are off a significant amount you may see gains but probably slight.

I've run a big Hughes flat tappet in 2 different blocks with the same lifters and never had a problem, others have.

BTW I've never yet bushed lifters in any of my engines but I haven't built a lot of them like a performance machine shop would, just my own personal engines.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 06:23 PM

Think about it this way...Run a roller, forget it. Run a flat tappet and sure..it will make a few HP maybe 10 or so--and prevent lifter / cam wear problems but...the added cost could cover a rollers expense. Many of the old blocks we have available have lifter bores that are worn to the point that flat tappet success is a crapshoot--too loose on the lifter bore and you get trouble--throw a roller in and who cares--it will run great, no issues except maybe a little oil pressure loss but no big deal--no worse than needle bearing rockers etc. I only do it if I need to repair a valuable block. Run a roller and forget about the bushings. It cost alot because it is a big job and takes more time than you might imagine.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 08:06 PM

Dom, If you want your cam timing to be exactly the same from cylinder to cylinder it needs to be done in a stock block. They are all over the place. I won't put a motor together for performance without bushing the lifter bores be it a flat tappet or roller.

Everyone wants their pistons @ the same deck height, rods the same length and the stroke on the crank equalized not to mention having all the cam lobes the same.

So think about the 16 different angles the lifters are are seeing in relation to the cam.

More power than most would think but JMO and
Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 08:42 PM

Quote:

Dom, If you want your cam timing to be exactly the same from cylinder to cylinder it needs to be done in a stock block. They are all over the place. I won't put a motor together for performance without bushing the lifter bores be it a flat tappet or roller.

Everyone wants their pistons @ the same deck height, rods the same length and the stroke on the crank equalized not to mention having all the cam lobes the same.

So think about the 16 different angles the lifters are are seeing in relation to the cam.

More power than most would think but JMO and



101%
Posted By: BradH

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 09:28 PM

This is one of those mods that seem to cause a lot of polarity in opinions. Ya' got the "Not worth the money!" side and the "Don't build a race engine without 'em!" crew.

My justification for having my 452 block bushed was because a wiped cam incident resulted in so much junk getting 'tween the lifters and the bores that the bores were scored. In this case, it was done to "fix" the lifter bores during the subsequent rebuild.

My 451 block does not have bushed bores, partly because I don't know that it needs 'em and partly because there aren't any local shops to my knowledge that are equipped to even do the job. If it had already been done as part of those CNC'd block prep jobs, great. But having it done now as another expense during a regular freshen-up job seems harder to justify, at least IMO.
Posted By: SILVER67

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 10:00 PM

I'm having it done to my block. Mine were just worn out. I don't think the burnishing ball had any resistance when it was slid in the some of the lifter bores. I also had two lifters the had been going bad.

Michael
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 11:51 PM

Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss
Posted By: dartman366

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/18/11 11:53 PM

$600.00 to do mine, and I did it for piece of mind and to help controll oil pressure issues with the small block's known oil galley problems of uncovering the galley with too much lift, also to keep from loosing as much oil pressure if I were to lose a lifter from a broken pushrod.
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 03:02 AM

i just bushed a brand new R-3 block for a customer. one bank was really good regarding angle and location of the bores. as i recall, all of them on that bank were within .005" of the bluprint spec. that's actually pretty good.
the problem started on the opposite side when we found the whole bank was bored at 57 degree's instead of 59 degree's. i'm not even sure how that could happen. i had to order extra thick bushings to be able to correct it though.
when it comes to stock blocks, i've had some that were "okay" for the most part and others that were way out of whack in every regard.
one thing i can tell you though, correcting bores that are off in angle, or just plain worn out is definately worth horsepower, probably more than you might think.
we also routinely see blocks that have the cylinders bored at all kinds of different angles other than the 45 degree's they're supposed to be.
these new CNC block machines like what we use show up all of the previously commited machining sins. i think any time you can correct the geometry of cylinders and lifter bores, among other things, your going to make more power and have a longer lasting and more reliable engine.
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 04:17 AM

Correcting the lifter bore with bronze bushings should be part of the blueprinting process and the labor to do so is paid.Too many people "cheap out" thinking it's not needed.I'll also add that the CNC machine is the way to go.Sure some of the machine shops still use the old style fixture that has worked for years but,,,,,,,,,,,,the CNC machine is the way to go
Posted By: Mike Swann

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 04:44 AM

Never done it and managed to make big, reliable hp. But this was always with a B or RB platform which had excellent VT geometry to start with.
Posted By: Darryls-Demon

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 05:01 AM

A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 05:55 AM

Quote:

A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.



i can't imagine anyone paying that much for that job. we use a 200k CNC to do that job and we only charge around half that much.
Posted By: moparniac

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 09:44 AM

it's $400 around here.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 01:59 PM

Tankxxx again.............got to head out soon for more prep/painting crap so I`ll call Jason later and see what`s up. My biggest concern is waisting money on a stock block w/stock caps.
Posted By: BobR

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 02:32 PM

Quote:

Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss



IMO that's is the only real reason to do this assuming the stock bores aren't worn out.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 02:37 PM

Makes sense.........
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 03:09 PM

Quote:

Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss



Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?



Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.

Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?

I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 05:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss



Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?



Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.

Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?

I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time

I did that stock block to correct the angles( thye probally where okay, I didn't check the angles, they had .0025 + clearances then) and insure that I wouldn't loose oil pressure if the lifters came out. I have check cam lobes on both #1 and #6, you don't have to move the degree wheel to keep TDC in the same place , and found a bad cam grind when I had it check on a cam Doctor
Posted By: LA360

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/19/11 10:21 PM

Quote:

A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.



Is he having Key Way lifters fitted?
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 12:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jason did my 527 block before we moved here, the 518 street motor is not bushed. The 518 made 775 HP on Oregon pump gas with the same carb that the 527 made 845 HP on race gas, both with the same set of ported Indy 440-1 heads I have piched a roller lifter out(the old bracket Duster) when a valve spring broke and bent the pushrod, oil pressure went to zero, the 527 motor broke a Smith Bros pushrod on the dyno testing and both lifters came out, no oil pressure loss



Cab, is this with a STOCK OEM block?



Puting bushing's in the bores and "correcting" geometry with bushings are 2 different things.

Has anybody degreed their cam in on #1 intake and then went and checked say #8 intake lobe to see where it comes in at on a OEM uncorrected block?

I don't have enough parts to put something together to do this but someone may have the parts and time



I did mine when I assembled the new shortblock just because I was curious and it wasn't off but maybe .5 degree. Were any others off? I don't know but that's pretty darn close for an old Crane grind if you ask me.
Posted By: Cudajon

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 03:49 AM

This thread is jogging a bit of remembered tech from back in the 70's. When and only when, running a roller cam some guys would bush the Mopar lifter bore .904 to chevy .842 so they could use a lighter and cheaper chevy roller lifter. The wider base circle of the mopar didn't really make much difeerence with a roller lifter. Anybody else remember this?
Posted By: mac56

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 12:24 PM

Quote:

This thread is jogging a bit of remembered tech from back in the 70's. When and only when, running a roller cam some guys would bush the Mopar lifter bore .904 to chevy .842 so they could use a lighter and cheaper chevy roller lifter. The wider base circle of the mopar didn't really make much difeerence with a roller lifter. Anybody else remember this?


I would be interested to see if anyone on here has done this. When I asked my machine shop about this they said why would you do this when chev guys take theirs out to .904 size. I have not found a chev guy yet running anything but .842.
Posted By: mbogina

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 02:20 PM

The correction of geometry, decrease in wear, improvement in alignment- those are all great reasons to bush the lifter bores, but the biggest reason I have is for the oil control. Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 03:28 PM

Quote:

The correction of geometry, decrease in wear, improvement in alignment- those are all great reasons to bush the lifter bores, but the biggest reason I have is for the oil control. Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.

Now THIS has me really considering this mod. Man, 8 years ago when I freshoned this thing I had thousands of(credit card)dollars to work with and never really thaught about it and even the machinest(s) didn`t recommend it or they`d be in now.
Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/20/11 05:24 PM

Quote:

The correction of geometry, decrease in wear, improvement in alignment- those are all great reasons to bush the lifter bores, but the biggest reason I have is for the oil control. Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.



I have a SB with lifter bushings and a few other mods and with a plain old standard Melling pump I still have more pressure than I really need
Posted By: MCHBOB

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/21/11 06:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.



Is he having Key Way lifters fitted?



Thats what iam thinking JESEL keyway bushings are 35ish each
Posted By: Darryls-Demon

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/21/11 05:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A good friend called me tonight, he is having a 426 Hemi rebuilt and the bill for bushing the lifter bores was right at a thousand dollars. This was on a MP block.



Is he having Key Way lifters fitted?



Thats what iam thinking JESEL keyway bushings are 35ish each



No they are standard bushings. He will be using Crower lifters.
Posted By: mac56

Re: BUSHED LIFTER BORES IN STOCK BLOCK............. - 08/22/11 10:50 AM

Quote:

Try priming a BBM or Hemi with the intake off it and watch the GALLONS of oil that push by the lifter bores. We frequently run only standard oil pumps in bushed motors, no HV needed, and we also frequently need to REDUCE the oil pressure in those same motors after controlling the massive leaks from the lifter bores.


I have primed without valley pan and it was frightening how much oil comes out around the bottom of the lifter.
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