Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: Mike H]
#1017222
06/28/11 12:21 AM
06/28/11 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632 SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
72N96RR
I LOVE WEDGIES
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I LOVE WEDGIES
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
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I just base my opinion on experience as a younger man..I had a 72 Road Runner with a 400 4 speed in it back in 1979...EVERY and I mean EVERY 383 I ran against was no match for my car..Especially in a Charger body...Then one day I went up against a 68 Road Runner with a 440 and we left even but that dang car acually lifted up both front and back and launched like it was shot from a gun...I was amazed...Another car that smoked me was a Torino with a 428 that could smoke the hides at 40mph...Cool memories as a kid...But all those races left a bad taste for anything with a 383...In a Dart maybe but thats about it...Gimme the 440... The 72 RR/GTX I have now has some seriously sweet stock power..From a 5 mph roll I can stab it to the floor and it will roast em on into second gear until I let off..I love these old cars..
1972 Road Runner / GTX 440 4spd Dana 3.54 Just about to turn 26K original miles..
A boat, a GMC truck, some Craftsman Tools, LOTS of Zombie Protection, and a few Goldfish..
If you love someone set them free.. If they come back it means nobody else wanted them either..!!
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: dennismopar73]
#1017223
06/28/11 12:24 AM
06/28/11 12:24 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632 SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
72N96RR
I LOVE WEDGIES
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I LOVE WEDGIES
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
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Quote:
400 block, stoker kit ,make 500 cci, street/race, lighter block, be had cheap, set rpm heads, mid to low 11s, could be able run in the 10 without whole lot work, jmo
Thats a seriously cool set up but you are talking what,, 8 to 10 grand to buid it right???
And the OP wants 500 hp from his motor which will be a whole lot easier to achieve from the 440 than the 383 and cheaper too..IMO...
1972 Road Runner / GTX 440 4spd Dana 3.54 Just about to turn 26K original miles..
A boat, a GMC truck, some Craftsman Tools, LOTS of Zombie Protection, and a few Goldfish..
If you love someone set them free.. If they come back it means nobody else wanted them either..!!
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: RemCharger]
#1017225
06/28/11 10:54 AM
06/28/11 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I'm sure there will be some out there. There's one at our track, its a tough little motor....
440s are just plain fun to beat. I kind of enjoyed roasting my buddies 69 440 cuda this weekend. Not by alot, mind you, but the #'s don't lie.
and how much more do you have in your 383? What is the rest of the set-up? yours and his? apples and oranges. Nothing better than putting a Small block talker on the trailer w/ his "giant killer"
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1017227
06/28/11 12:06 PM
06/28/11 12:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825 Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
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I'm sure there will be some out there. There's one at our track, its a tough little motor....
440s are just plain fun to beat. I kind of enjoyed roasting my buddies 69 440 cuda this weekend. Not by alot, mind you, but the #'s don't lie.
and how much more do you have in your 383? What is the rest of the set-up? yours and his? apples and oranges. Nothing better than putting a Small block talker on the trailer w/ his "giant killer"
Flat tappet cams, alum heads (within few cfm, same bench) same pistons, same carb, ...... He has glass frontend, no aprons, little car. Mine is all factory steel, at least 400 lbs more. I found some issues with mine too, I'm barely getting 3rd gear with my bigger tires. It goes thru at 5900~ 6000, and I only make power between 6 and 7. I mean it bogs at 5 grand on gear change. I think a 5.13 should be in order.
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1017228
06/28/11 12:10 PM
06/28/11 12:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825 Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
Nothing better than putting a Small block talker on the trailer w/ his "giant killer"
Funny thing is, its smaller than most small blocks these days... Its in its "own class" I believe the fastest 383 cuda stocker was Dave Wrens at 9.70.
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: RemCharger]
#1017229
06/28/11 12:57 PM
06/28/11 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Nothing better than putting a Small block talker on the trailer w/ his "giant killer"
Funny thing is, its smaller than most small blocks these days... Its in its "own class" I believe the fastest 383 cuda stocker was Dave Wrens at 9.70.
I hear that... 440ci is small these days
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: 4boxers4]
#1017231
06/28/11 01:42 PM
06/28/11 01:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Some humorous replies here. (which HAS to be pretty accurate because of the way the gov't makes car companies validate their vehicles)...
Speaking of funny replies. You are kidding right.
No...it's actually alot of work to certify a car in the real world. I work for an OEM and am somewhat familiar with that activity. I know what we do in the dyno rooms as well. It is really unbelieveable to what length your data has to be accurate, for alot of reasons. Maybe my response sounded like I was dependant on the gov't but that needs clarified. The OEM has to be very accurate with their data so a statement like 'it's hp was overrated intentionally' is somewhat unbelieveable to me because of the ramifications against the OEM from class actions etc
That was then and this is now. Back in the '60's, it was common to underrate motors for a variety of reasons including corporate rules, insurance, etc. There are dozens of examples.
....that is unless you believe a 455 Stage I Buick really only had 360hp or a 455 W30 had 5hp over the base 442 engine, or an L88 427 only had 5hp over an L72 or a 428SCJ really only had the same hp as a 383, or......well you get the point (or I hope you do, anyway! )
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: DPelletier]
#1017232
06/29/11 10:32 PM
06/29/11 10:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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To make the motors competative at the same hp level you have to allow for weight. At 383 at 500 hp is not going to have the "grunt" at the low end of the dial. However, the 440 ISN'T going to buzz to nearly 6800 rpm to make it's 500, either. My point is that they are both capable, but with the HEAVIER weight of the cars the motors are being put in, the 440 with its' torque moves the mass much better. On average, for example, 440's are usually in chassis of 3700-4400Lbs (mostly B-bodies), with the "all-outs" BELOW 3600 total weight. That still doesn't make it better, just an EASIER choice to build for street usage.
Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 06/29/11 10:53 PM.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: Fat_Mike]
#1017233
06/29/11 10:44 PM
06/29/11 10:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Clearly both "can tear up the streets." But he's not building a vehicle around a motor (which is irrelavent anyway), so forget about body weight and all the other speculative responses. Yeah, sure there are plenty of well built 383's that can beat up on lesser built 440's. But as said above, with COMPARABLY BUILT MOTORS, a 440 will always out perform its little brother...the 383. No?
Sure it would! Equal parts, tuning and SAME chassis and a 57 cube advantage - VERY unfair, but an advantage. For sake of equality, trade off 57 cubes for 570 pounds LESS total car weight w/383 and the comparison just got a lot closer!! 440's are better to put into a mid to HEAVY chassis due to the torque they produce.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: DPelletier]
#1017234
06/29/11 11:50 PM
06/29/11 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 957 Heart of Ohio
4boxers4
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 957
Heart of Ohio
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Quote:
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Some humorous replies here. (which HAS to be pretty accurate because of the way the gov't makes car companies validate their vehicles)...
Speaking of funny replies. You are kidding right.
No...it's actually alot of work to certify a car in the real world. I work for an OEM and am somewhat familiar with that activity. I know what we do in the dyno rooms as well. It is really unbelieveable to what length your data has to be accurate, for alot of reasons. Maybe my response sounded like I was dependant on the gov't but that needs clarified. The OEM has to be very accurate with their data so a statement like 'it's hp was overrated intentionally' is somewhat unbelieveable to me because of the ramifications against the OEM from class actions etc
That was then and this is now. Back in the '60's, it was common to underrate motors for a variety of reasons including corporate rules, insurance, etc. There are dozens of examples.
....that is unless you believe a 455 Stage I Buick really only had 360hp or a 455 W30 had 5hp over the base 442 engine, or an L88 427 only had 5hp over an L72 or a 428SCJ really only had the same hp as a 383, or......well you get the point (or I hope you do, anyway! )
Dave
I am not that familiar with those motors or ratings as I have been absorbed in Chrysler products for 30 years so I will take your word that those ratings may seem suspicious. What I do understand is that alot of stories about how OEM's work vs actual situations is also inflated greatly, whether then or now. I have heard alot about ratings inflated and deflated but I have also seen dyno reports showing those very engines to be awful darn close to advertised. Since I am a data driven individual, I am usually forced to be somewhat skeptical until I see some provided to lend credence to that disparity. Again, I am not trying to be a jerk, and your opinion is valued...I just tend to want to see supporting info if someone feels the factory rating was disingenuous. Thanks for the input.
Persistance is omnipotent
Durability Engineer, Chair and Couch division...
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1017235
06/30/11 12:55 AM
06/30/11 12:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,462 oklahoma
forphorty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,462
oklahoma
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Quote:
Clearly both "can tear up the streets." But he's not building a vehicle around a motor (which is irrelavent anyway), so forget about body weight and all the other speculative responses. Yeah, sure there are plenty of well built 383's that can beat up on lesser built 440's. But as said above, with COMPARABLY BUILT MOTORS, a 440 will always out perform its little brother...the 383. No?
Sure it would! Equal parts, tuning and SAME chassis and a 57 cube advantage - VERY unfair, but an advantage. For sake of equality, trade off 57 cubes for 570 pounds LESS total car weight w/383 and the comparison just got a lot closer!! 440's are better to put into a mid to HEAVY chassis due to the torque they produce.
Why does your 383 car get to weigh 570 pounds less? Maybe a 225 slant 6 in a 1700 pound roadster would be better? 383s typically get better fuel economy than 440s. If that is important to you, then maybe a 383 makes sense. People have their preferences for a variety of reasons; underdog status, sentimental value, nostalgia, etc. Looking at it practically, if the choice is between two engines within the same family (yeah i know, ones a B and the other is an RB) the one with 57 more cubes offers much more bang for the buck. It may take a lot of money spent on that 383 to make up for its displacement disadvantage. The old adage goes " The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars or light weight".
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: forphorty]
#1017236
06/30/11 01:21 AM
06/30/11 01:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,832 Fort Morgan
1OFNONE
Has been a member for quite a few years, so relax.
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Has been a member for quite a few years, so relax.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,832
Fort Morgan
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"Tearing it up on the streets was the quote, Correct ?
If a guy wants to tear it up on the streets it doesent matter how much horsepower or cost of the build is. Its traction.
Want to blow the tires off ? or fry them for an 1/8th mile yet drive on the interstate at 75 mph all day long ? 440
IMO truely to many variables from money available to car weight, gear and tire size.
Honestly, I feel bang for the buck is 440. But to be different and like to hear RPM ? 383 but you will need gear and converter to do the 383 which costs drivability.
My opinion only.
So the bartender says to the horse " Gee, Why the long face?"
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: forphorty]
#1017238
06/30/11 05:57 PM
06/30/11 05:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
Quote:
Clearly both "can tear up the streets." But he's not building a vehicle around a motor (which is irrelavent anyway), so forget about body weight and all the other speculative responses. Yeah, sure there are plenty of well built 383's that can beat up on lesser built 440's. But as said above, with COMPARABLY BUILT MOTORS, a 440 will always out perform its little brother...the 383. No?
Sure it would! Equal parts, tuning and SAME chassis and a 57 cube advantage - VERY unfair, but an advantage. For sake of equality, trade off 57 cubes for 570 pounds LESS total car weight w/383 and the comparison just got a lot closer!! 440's are better to put into a mid to HEAVY chassis due to the torque they produce.
Why does your 383 car get to weigh 570 pounds less? Maybe a 225 slant 6 in a 1700 pound roadster would be better? 383s typically get better fuel economy than 440s. If that is important to you, then maybe a 383 makes sense. People have their preferences for a variety of reasons; underdog status, sentimental value, nostalgia, etc. Looking at it practically, if the choice is between two engines within the same family (yeah i know, ones a B and the other is an RB) the one with 57 more cubes offers much more bang for the buck. It may take a lot of money spent on that 383 to make up for its displacement disadvantage. The old adage goes " The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars or light weight".
Thanks for your post. It's what I have been saying all along. 440's are cheaper to build, but not neccessarily the better motor. ANY motor can be made to run WELL, it's just a matter of preference and how much money you're willing to SPEND, as well as the chassis it's going in. FWIW, 383's have very little low end torque to move an average B-body as well as 440 would, hence the 383 NEEDS gears and some weight trimming to equal the performance. Smaller motors -lighter weighted cars, for example: 340 Dusters, Demons, Swingers and Darts.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1017239
06/30/11 06:25 PM
06/30/11 06:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Thanks for your post. It's what I have been saying all along. 440's are cheaper to build, but not neccessarily the better motor. ANY motor can be made to run WELL, it's just a matter of preference and how much money you're willing to SPEND, as well as the chassis it's going in. FWIW, 383's have very little low end torque to move an average B-body as well as 440 would, hence the 383 NEEDS gears and some weight trimming to equal the performance. Smaller motors -lighter weighted cars, for example: 340 Dusters, Demons, Swingers and Darts.
blah blah blah,,,, a 440 in a dart will beat the drum out of an equally preped 340. A mild 383 in a 3800lb b-body w/ 3.91 gears will run mid 13's at best. The same 440 build will have you well into the 12's. Have had both and done both. I'd NEVER do a SB or 383 in a B-body. Even if it came w/ a "400hp" SB.
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Re: 383 VS 440
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1017240
06/30/11 08:01 PM
06/30/11 08:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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blah blah blah,,,, a 440 in a dart will beat the drum out of an equally preped 340. A mild 383 in a 3800lb b-body w/ 3.91 gears will run mid 13's at best. The same 440 build will have you well into the 12's. Have had both and done both. I'd NEVER do a SB or 383 in a B-body. Even if it came w/ a "400hp" SB.
400hp SB? Like a Chebbie? A. If you can get past the TRACTION PROBLEMS. B. Everybody knows that a "mild" 383 and a 12sec 440 are two dissimilar motors. C. It's GOOD that you have "stepped up" to a 500 cube - 440 based combo for your 70' Charger. Definitely NOT putting it down and it does run really HARD. If I had a CHOICE for that body style and car weight, I would setup the SAME way and maybe add a few more pony-inducing items on it!! D. 440 Darts were/are kinda hard to hook, without traction aids, so I don't think a 340 would have problems with it from the tree. It may be close after the 660 but 340's ARE capable of handing 440's a beatdown. FWIW, I DID get by a few strong 340's and the same ones even whooped upon some 383's. Never knocked the "smaller" motor since I didn't know what they were carrying! E. with ya on the SB or 383 in a B-Body, But I'd chance a 383 in a "stripper" B-chassis or a good A-body. Hands down, 340's are BEST (ok, dustergirl, you can stop jumpin' ) in the A-Body for street/strip. 3800lbs is kinda heavy for a 383 to push around, I would go no higher than 3500-3600 (incl. driver) absoulute! 3800lbs, is right for a "warm" 440. Just my own opinions said out loud!!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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