|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Hyper Henry]
#1016552
06/20/11 12:44 AM
06/20/11 12:44 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Way too fat, is my guess. Look at the linkage between the throttle arm and the barrel valve. You want to lean out the motor, so loosen the jam nuts on both ends, and lengthen the link by three flats or so, to start. Keep track of the moves you make.
Start up the motor, and keep lengthening the adjustment till the rpms rise at least four to five hundred rpm over your normal idle rpm. This will be most likely lean enough to build heat in the motor. Once you have it to the temp you want to run at, fatten up the idle by shortening that link till the motor has instant throttle response.
To warm the motor once you have the barrel valve set, push the fuel shutoff patially closed, keeping an eye on exhaust temp, or enough to raise the idle as before. You will notice the motor won't like to be real lean until you get some heat in it, so be patient, leaning out a little at a time with the shutoff as it warms up. Also, you probably have fuel draining out of the injector lines when you shut off the motor. When you shut the motor down, starve it to death with the fuel shutoff, then hit the starter again after about thirty seconds, and it will run a bit and burn off the fuel that drained into the cylinders.
To restart, put the throttle to the floor, crank till it pops, quickly back off the throttle till it starts. May take five seconds or so. Keep the motor lean as much as you can to keep the fuel clear, and heat up the motor real good (210+) to clear the oil.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: gregsdart]
#1016553
06/20/11 12:55 AM
06/20/11 12:55 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner
|
Trophy Winner
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
|
your dead fat for sure, like was posted lean out the barrel valve till you loose your throttle response then come back a flat or to till it returns. there is so much to a simple injection people often overlook the important things.
Did you leakdown the barrel valve before you started it? 20-25% is a good start with around .002-.005 of butterfly to runner clearence
What are your pump flow numbers?
What size nozzels are you using?
what size main jet and whos jet is it?
how much total horsepower do you think you will be making?
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: bigtimeauto]
#1016554
06/20/11 01:27 AM
06/20/11 01:27 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 345
Ontario, Canada
Hyper Henry
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 345
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
your dead fat for sure, like was posted lean out the barrel valve till you loose your throttle response then come back a flat or to till it returns. there is so much to a simple injection people often overlook the important things.
Did you leakdown the barrel valve before you started it? 20-25% is a good start with around .002-.005 of butterfly to runner clearence
What are your pump flow numbers?
What size nozzels are you using?
what size main jet and whos jet is it?
how much total horsepower do you think you will be making?
Yes my buddy did a leakdown on the barrel valve. Went by Kinsler book for my cubic inch and set it at 18%. Butterly clearance is at a tight .004
Enderle pump(new), not sure on flow numbers but was what Alky Digger recomended. I belive it's part #80A??
Not sure on nozzles but same thing, what was recommended by Mike @ Alky Digger.
Mian jet was .070 and changed to .080 (Hilborn)and did get better but still seems real fat.
H.P I am guessing approx 750-775 at crank.
Did not adjust/close off shutoff valve at all during fireup and idling, ran it full wide open all the time. Will that not make the idle come way up  Idles at about 1300 the way it is now but seems real snappy on the throttle
Thanks
Derrick
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1016556
06/20/11 09:57 AM
06/20/11 09:57 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
|
Quote:
Now if I can just remember to open the barrel valve before trying to start the car 
LOL Been there done that.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: mac56]
#1016557
06/20/11 11:36 AM
06/20/11 11:36 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now if I can just remember to open the barrel valve before trying to start the car
LOL Been there done that.
That happened a time or two yesterday!
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1016560
06/20/11 01:10 PM
06/20/11 01:10 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
|
The 1st time for the day I use squirt a little gas in all 8 throttle bores on the terminators,and it fires right up if I remember to open the shut off valve.  For the rest of the day I just open the shut off valve and be ready to pump the gas pedal(acts like one does when its running out of gas) a time or two till the engines catches up.Ron's sell a primer system to cure this problem,but there is not enough room for another tank to hold gas,don't want the added weight and don't have the spare$$$. So I have gotten used to it.  PS Mine never milks the oil,the oil out of it looks just as clean as the oil out of my Lincoln. But I use my lean out valve to warm it up,and when its in the high 90's like the present I never have to lean it out. I think it might would stay around 175 degrees if I run let it run all day. Just called and checked the price of VP M5 $279.00  VP M1 $179.00 per drum. 
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Hyper Henry]
#1016563
07/05/11 03:17 AM
07/05/11 03:17 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 414
No. cal., sacramento usa
speedy383
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 414
No. cal., sacramento usa
|
I use around 3 gallons on first run,warm up ,tech,etc.The rest of the day 1/1/2 to 1/3/4, You have more hp.but 1 am over 3000 lb at 9.65et.I can run mine at home for 15/20 minutes on one gallon or less cold.The barrel valve either has a problem or your probably have 30 or more % leakdown,The main pill wont really affect it that much at idle. Keep lentghning the rod till you get a stumble when you snap the throttle then go back (richen one flat) then see what your leak down is,The % is figured on a graduation of the air in gauge ,if you dont maintain 100 lb pressure on that one you have to calculate % on a graduated basis,.Sorry so long ,this stuff is simple but difficult to explain.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Hyper Henry]
#1016565
07/05/11 08:33 AM
07/05/11 08:33 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
If the idle was set with the motor cooler than the temp you run at, it is probably still too fat. You will use more alky if you are trying to run the car at a lower temp than say 180 to 190 degrees. I see about 500 degrees exhaust temp at idle, full warm ready to run at 185 degrees. My system varies by a flat or two on the barrel valve adjustment from hot summer to cool fall days. You can set the idle , just remember exactly what you did so you don't lose the base setting. From where you are at, I would warm the motor to operating temp, then lean it out a couple of flats and see if it is crisp when you snap the throttle open quickly. That is what you want. Move leaner till it doesn't have that crisp response at operating temp, then go back a little at a time till it does. You want it just barely rich enough to be vary responsive, no hesitation. You will get there, just keep working at it and you will get comfortable. It would be a good idea to print all the posts on this thread and keep them with you till working on the system becomes second nature.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: speedy383]
#1016566
07/05/11 08:45 AM
07/05/11 08:45 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Just talked to a Hillborn user 10.0 at 3300LB big block, His main pill(bypass)is 89.You really cant copy other tune ups as similar numbers will flow different but its in the ballpark.His barrel valve is set at 19%.
People would come by our pits and ask about my injection because we always quialified #1 or 2 or 3. I always talked to them, but never told the truth about my setup. It's racing, it's competitive. Why would I tell you my tuneup for free?
Like what was said, everyones setup is different and if you listen to too many people your not gonna win or run worth a hoot.
Get out there and run the car and make changes and don't worry about the other guy. You will never learn until you make changes and see how the car runs.
If it's milking the oil, it's not right and they are not made to idle for 15 minutes.
The best way to prime the motor is with gasoline in a presurized sprayer that atomizes the gas. Only need to do it when the motor is cold.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Hyper Henry]
#1016567
07/05/11 09:47 AM
07/05/11 09:47 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
|
Quote:
I haven't touched the linkage because my buddy told me not to $@#! with it 
You are going to have to lean out the idle with the barrel valve linkage, or have somebody do it.
Everything you posted shows it is way too rich at idle. Including when you lean with the shut off valve the idle goes much higher. It is normal when leaning with the shut off valve for the idle to go up, and that actually helps driving in the pits (little/no throttle needed). And after adjusting the barrel valve, readjust the idle throttle blade position. Keep notes.
Don't confuse rich at idle and rich going down the track at WOT. You can adjust the idle with the barrel valve setting, and the WOT with the main bypass pill/jet.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: MegaDart]
#1016569
07/05/11 01:23 PM
07/05/11 01:23 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 684
St. Charles, MO.
Slingshot383
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 684
St. Charles, MO.
|
www.hre.com and Spud Miller at Fuel Injection Enterproses have math formulas that will get you a starting baseline to work from. If your pump is an 80A, it's around a 6.8 gallon a minute pump. You are fat! With your cubic inches and the intake that you have, your fat. You could go to a 100 pill in the main, and it would be close I bet. The other thing that so far nobody mentioned is that when you change your main pill, if your barrel valve is spot on, you will have to adjust it a flat or two. Until you get close with your tune-up, you will want to make changes of 12 - 16 number on your main pill. You're looking to make heat in the motor and show heat on the plugs. Once you get close, then make changes of 4 numbers at a time: 100, 96, 92 or 100, 104, 108. Once your happy with how the car is running, then you might want to think about adding a high speed lean-out to further dial in the system.
1994 Undercover Chassis 125" altered
stack injected big block, soon blown and injected
Member of The Torque and Recoil Club
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Slingshot383]
#1016570
07/05/11 02:40 PM
07/05/11 02:40 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
|
Quote:
www.hre.com and Spud Miller at Fuel Injection Enterproses have math formulas that will get you a starting baseline to work from. If your pump is an 80A, it's around a 6.8 gallon a minute pump. You are fat! With your cubic inches and the intake that you have, your fat. You could go to a 100 pill in the main, and it would be close I bet. The other thing that so far nobody mentioned is that when you change your main pill, if your barrel valve is spot on, you will have to adjust it a flat or two. Until you get close with your tune-up, you will want to make changes of 12 - 16 number on your main pill. You're looking to make heat in the motor and show heat on the plugs. Once you get close, then make changes of 4 numbers at a time: 100, 96, 92 or 100, 104, 108. Once your happy with how the car is running, then you might want to think about adding a high speed lean-out to further dial in the system.
I sent my whole setup to fuel injection enterprises to start with, as I was new at the mechanical alky injection also. My tuneups were very close from him. I have since fine tuned my tuneup with minor variances from his initial tuneups. Imop VERY well worth having done being new to the injection as I was. Worth every penny. Saved me a ton of headache.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: greendart408]
#1016571
07/05/11 02:57 PM
07/05/11 02:57 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
www.hre.com and Spud Miller at Fuel Injection Enterproses have math formulas that will get you a starting baseline to work from. If your pump is an 80A, it's around a 6.8 gallon a minute pump. You are fat! With your cubic inches and the intake that you have, your fat. You could go to a 100 pill in the main, and it would be close I bet. The other thing that so far nobody mentioned is that when you change your main pill, if your barrel valve is spot on, you will have to adjust it a flat or two. Until you get close with your tune-up, you will want to make changes of 12 - 16 number on your main pill. You're looking to make heat in the motor and show heat on the plugs. Once you get close, then make changes of 4 numbers at a time: 100, 96, 92 or 100, 104, 108. Once your happy with how the car is running, then you might want to think about adding a high speed lean-out to further dial in the system.
I sent my whole setup to fuel injection enterprises to start with, as I was new at the mechanical alky injection also. My tuneups were very close from him. I have since fine tuned my tuneup with minor variances from his initial tuneups. Imop VERY well worth having done being new to the injection as I was. Worth every penny. Saved me a ton of headache.
Me too, my whole manifold and fuel pump went to Kinsler and they fixed all kinds of wore out stuff on my manifold I didn't even know about. Then they had record of my stuff and I could call them and they were VERY helpful.
You know happened the first time I ran my car? We quialified #1 and was the fastest car at every race the whole season, every race!! And I never ran a injected car before that.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: greendart408]
#1016572
07/05/11 03:02 PM
07/05/11 03:02 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
www.hre.com and Spud Miller at Fuel Injection Enterproses have math formulas that will get you a starting baseline to work from. If your pump is an 80A, it's around a 6.8 gallon a minute pump. You are fat! With your cubic inches and the intake that you have, your fat. You could go to a 100 pill in the main, and it would be close I bet. The other thing that so far nobody mentioned is that when you change your main pill, if your barrel valve is spot on, you will have to adjust it a flat or two. Until you get close with your tune-up, you will want to make changes of 12 - 16 number on your main pill. You're looking to make heat in the motor and show heat on the plugs. Once you get close, then make changes of 4 numbers at a time: 100, 96, 92 or 100, 104, 108. Once your happy with how the car is running, then you might want to think about adding a high speed lean-out to further dial in the system.
I sent my whole setup to fuel injection enterprises to start with, as I was new at the mechanical alky injection also. My tuneups were very close from him. I have since fine tuned my tuneup with minor variances from his initial tuneups. Imop VERY well worth having done being new to the injection as I was. Worth every penny. Saved me a ton of headache.
The motor looks good, nice and cleanly put togeather. 
The thing that caught my eye was your quick disconnect jet can, imo it should not be mounted solid like that to the fuel cell. Vibration can cause the pill to come off it's seat and cause leanness for a second. fwiw. Tire shake does happen sometimes when you start making hp.
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1016573
07/05/11 06:38 PM
07/05/11 06:38 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
|
Slingshot383 and others. I was going to make a post and ask this question. I put a new set of Champion C59CX plugs in mine,with 7-10 mins warm up time and 7 1/8 mile passes driving back from each pass. The plugs look new no color what-so-ever,you can only see color on about 2 threads down on the plugs. It runs great,the idle is about 1200-1500 I have to lean it out @ the start of the day to warm it up. As good as it runs I really hate to start changing things,but the racer in me makes me think I may need to do a little more tuning. I don't want to leave anything on the table with the tune-up. The more I learn about my terminators the better I like them. And I have a lot more to learn. PS How does everyone else's plugs look?
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#1016574
07/06/11 12:58 AM
07/06/11 12:58 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,001
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
I tune by using NGK plugs, -8 or -9 for 15/1. The plating will scorch off the base of the plug some as you get leaner, closer to optimum. I like to see about 3/4 of the base scorched, threads still shiny and unchanged. You will have to check all the plugs and eventually will see if you have one cylinder warmer than the rest. I go by that one for saftey. My #5 & 8 run a touch warm, so those are the two I check for tuneup, check the rest later to make sure all the rest are in line.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#1016575
07/06/11 09:21 AM
07/06/11 09:21 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,314
The Swamp
MegaDart
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,314
The Swamp
|
Quote:
The plugs look new no color what-so-ever,you can only see color on about 2 threads down on the plugs. It runs great,the idle is about 1200-1500 I have to lean it out @ the start of the day to warm it up.
As good as it runs I really hate to start changing things,but the racer in me makes me think I may need to do a little more tuning. I don't want to leave anything on the table with the tune-up. The more I learn about my terminators the better I like them. And I have a lot more to learn.
PS How does everyone else's plugs look?
From what you said I wouldn't change anything, unless your really bored!
ET is the ultimate barometer. If it is running that well don't change a thing. I never had any color on my injected plugs either. White and slightly wet.
Hyper will get there... injection is as complicated as a garden hose but there is definatly a learning curve.
Hyper, did you mention your pump size in this thread?? It could be a problem if it's too large. 
|
|
|
Re: Stack Injection Using a Lot of Alcohol
[Re: bad543dart]
#1016577
09/21/11 12:03 AM
09/21/11 12:03 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
|
Better be careful, running it like that will wipe the rings off like your holding the face against a grinder.
No kidding.
Should be able to warm the engine up some 140-15- deg in normal time and use maybe 2-4 gallons tops.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
|
|
|
|
|
First off went through about 8 gallons of alcohol with about 10 min idling time at the most 
Is that normal 
I haven't touched the linkage because my buddy told me not to $@#! with it 
