Who's got original cars willing to offer up vins, line sequences, and Engine Assembly Dates (EAD)?

What we're trying to uncover is a sequence pattern underlying all codes which will influence and/or confirm all dates, on all parts, on all A12 cars.

Whether you have an original car, or are looking to replicate originality, understanding the vin and line sequence code - in relation to the EAD - will help us determine dating on all A12s.

If we know how various EADs correlate with vins and line sequence numbers on original cars, we can fill in the gaps in approximate terms with non original car vins and line sequence numbers.

So we'll be focusing on the entire A12 group through comparing and correlating original car info.

That means taking the earliest and latest known original car vin/line sequence/EAD combinations, then fitting in between that all other known original combinations (on the time line).

Then studying the numbers to see where other vin/sequence combinations might go on non original motor cars. Through that, all EADs should be clearer. What should develope is a general picture of when all cars (with original and non original motors) were built.

Now before we get too far ahead Dave offers some very good info. It seems the runners are relatively organized from what he can gather as far as true sequential patterning. The bees are a little different and will need more info to qualify sequential order.

He is also considering requesting this info during Registry application. That way the info would be on record and available always. Another idea would be to get Mr. Govier involved for some data input and research guidance.

Back to date codes...

If we look at this in reverse order, starting with say an original A12 distributor (in the Berlisk article on the plating thread) we see that the date is 189 which is the 18th week of 69- or mid May.

Moving forward in the car assembly sequence, and forward in real time, the date code we come to next is the engine assembly date on the boss pad. This same original A12 motor in the article has an engine assembly date of June 18, 69.

So the distributor was dated (made at Prestolite) 4 weeks before the engine was assembled. This is one example of what the time lag is on this particular part on an original motor. (which can be repeated on all parts, to some degree of reliability, by using the Berlisk article or info from other original A12 cars).

The point is, all 'bolt on part' date codes are dictated by the EAD, which is as explained better understood through the vin, line sequence, and EAD comparative research noted above.

I know, I know, this is just another blanket statement which never seems to hold up in all cases. But we're hoping to gain some sort of broad knowledge where dates should be.

Wouldn't it be nice if you knew what month, or even day in 69 your brand new car left Lynch Road? Solving the above would go a long way towards gaining that understanding.

As I said, this is not a science, it's based on averages. I'm no expert, there might be a much more accurrate, easier way. If so, I'm all ears. Please pipe up and offer your ideas if interested in teaching/learning more about our car's birth dates. This forum is a powerful information medium. Let's use it to our advantage through sharing.

So, who's got an original car willing to offer up their vin, line sequence, and Engine Assembly Date (EAD)?

Best regards,
Coop

Here is all the info on my #s matching motor and I have the dealer invoice that is dated 4-29-69 so I think that puts the car at Ground Zero for the actual date of being built on approximately 4-26

WM23M9A263554
Order # 924487
4/26

Motor
cast 2/19/69
assembled 3/19/69, HP only No HP2

Carbs
front- 101 day 69, April 11
center-93 day 69, April 3
rear-93 day 69, April 3

Distributor
7th week 69, late Feb 69

My guess of the engine assembly date is for only the reciprocating assembly, I believe carb and manifold were added after engine assembly date, most probably due to Edelbrocks slow delivery of the manifolds

Dave

The actual date on distrib is 7(space)9, which I understand is 7th week of 69, located lower right corner of tag

John, I purchased mine new. I have everything except for the block. I will get dist.#, carb.#'s, and what ever else you need from the fender tag, broadcast sheet, etc. Let me know. PJ

My dist has 139 date code,engine assembled 5-20,cast 5-6-69.I'll check the carb dates tonite.Radiator date code 1229. Trans is stamped 290.Wiper motor 1189.center carb 1019.end carbs both 1219.

Yes there is a slight space between the 13 and the 9.Also,upon closer inspection, the three could be an eight that wasn't struck properly.

Hey Coop you know I have helped you with a lot of information in the past so don't take what I am about to say as a put down. Galen has been gather this type of information for years and years. He has it all in his computor. Several years back a guy whos A12 I was painting did not have a fender tag. At best Galen could only guess at a sequence number. There are so many variables in what you are trying to do I really wish you luck.

I have seen cars with lower VIN sequences and earlier build date with original parts that were date coded later than cars with higher VIN sequence and the later build date. With no corolation between order numbers. I eagerly await the results of what you are trying to accomplish. If you get it all figured out you can start your own business and not answer questions with out some green backs!!! You can even sign some autographs.

Again no one get bent out of shape, I just know how messed up these cars are. So far no one not even Galen has been able to put it all together.

I will check all of my past records and see if I can add anything to this.

John, Mike


John,

Attached is the dist tag from the Berlisk article. It appears the numbers 189 are without spaces. I believe Bill Overcash would have some good insight on this as he does rebuild them.



Mike,

Thanks for getting back on this. I always welcome your input. Hey, I'd much rather hear the truth, which will ultimately prevail anyway, than nice sounding BS.

I called Diane at Govier's today about this. She suggested we gather as much info as possible then send it in. They will look it over and we can then evaluate and discuss our options.

The Registry currently lists 188 cars. Of those perhaps Dave can tell us how many are original motor. Of those, we'll need to get as many as possible to conrtibute because there's sure to be some overlap in cars (between his data and ours) rendering our info old. Perhaps there is a chance that we can supply enough new data to arrive at some new conclusions. You never know.

I do know that to have any hope of pulling this off we will need to get every last 'original motor car' owner involved. That means all of those here that list their cars as 'original block' on the Registry, as well as all others.

Best regards,
Coop

As John RR and I have discussed in the past, We beleive that the A12 motors are dated all over the map because of so many "original" motors are restamps (due to the increasing value, ie GREED, of theses cars) and that I would take it with a grain of salt when someone says they have the original motor if that owner is not the original owner or has not had the car a very long time, I will post my block vin and dist tag here as soon as I can figure out how how to take a pic without the flash "washing out" the stampings

I think that the info highway for Galen is a oneway road, any info given to him is not going to be returned in kind, its a business to him and he is not going to open up his records to us for free, what are his long term intentions? If some untimely twist of fate were to befall him, god forbid, does he have a plan to put the info he has collected into the public domain or does it just disappear again, maybe forever

What about original tranmission cars my car has the original transmisson and there is a I believe it is a build date on it. Danny Bell

AZ A12 BEE, dannysbee

AZ,

Looking forward to your pics.

You are right about both subjects, but some things are better left unsaid, at least for the time being. So let's concentrate on gathering info, then we'll see how much leverage we have before submitting anything to GG. Thanks.

***

dannysbee,

Excellent point! Let's include that qualification as worthy of info submission... so please post your info. (vin, line sequence, EAD). Thanks.

Best regards,
Coop

danny,

I was rushing.

Obviously your EAD is unimportant. You will have to post your trans numbers instead. Gotta run.

Thanks.

Best regards,
Coop

Hi, Coop,

Here is my info for your research

Fender Tag:

19157 291805 9A272929
925 999 603
26 A12

T7 T7 H2X X9
RM23 E63 D21 426 948809



Line Seq. # 291805
VON 948809

Engine Casting Date 05-15-69
E440
6 4 HP2

=>June 4 Assembly Date

Carbs:

Center Date 0909
List 4391

Rear Date 1219
List 4394

Front Date 1139
List 4393

Distributor: p/n 982 Date 329

It is the distributor listed for an auto car, also has a very late date...32nd week of 69. Could have been changed out of course.


Trans:
9A272929
PP8332856 0453

My car does not have a build sheet unless it is in the headliner or under the carpet. I won't know until I restore it and that won't happen real soon...

Coop,
What else would you like to see?

Regards,
Frank

THANKS FRANK

It's very early in feedback, and I'm a little surprised in the lack of participation thus far.

Your help is greatly appreciated in both the number search AND 2005 reunion.

Hopefully this will encourage others to take the time, look at their cars, and post these important numbers. How long can that take? Maybe 15-20 minutes?

So thanks Frank, it's obvious you are confident in the integrity of your 'numbers matching' car.

C'mon guys, those of you who call your cars 'numbers matching' need to step up.

It's not like this thread is going to disappear. Our moderator has seen fit to permanently post this at the top of the page (thanks John), so the call will continue to go out.

Here's your chance to work without 'the experts', you know, the ones so many here hold with such high disdain.

Here's your chance to work as a group to possibly discover more about these cars than 'the experts' themselves might know.

Who knows what we might stumble onto? The more info that comes in, the better the chance we actually find a pattern worth following. I know this, we won't stumble onto anything if more owners don't come forward.

No offense out there. Just saying if you have a numbers matching car, put up- or shut up. If I'm missing something, something which would explain the reluctance to participate, please let me know.

If there is something that would jeopardize the value of a true numbers matching car, through the participation in this research- which I haven't thought of, please let me know.

Best regards,
Coop

***

Green Bay 17
IGGLES 20

Ok, this week I'll go out and look at numbers on my car. I need to know where to look for numbers on parts like the wiper motor, radiator, rear, K-frame, and anything else you might want to match up for dates. I have my fendertag here, do you want to look at it? I hate to post my numbers being that someone may copy and repo a tag just like mine. I'll also look at my numbers matching 4spd trans. I don't have the numbers motor though but do have a 69 hp2 dated 7-24. The vin number reads W223L9A------ for a coronet R/T. Notice that there is a (2) in place of the (S). Its original stamping.