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Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: sshemi] #981473 04/27/11 05:39 PM 04/27/11 05:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S. M moparniac master
moparniac master M Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S.	I got my world block from Ray Barton and he told me they hone with torque plate and heat ran thru the block. Mopar Performance

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: Guitar Jones] #981474 04/27/11 07:03 PM 04/27/11 07:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,445 Sterling Heights, Michigan 483... daniel_depetro pro stock
daniel_depetro pro stock Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,445 Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...	Quote: I mean 7 tenths. 3.9 V6 in a Dakota. Same exact specs, cam, heads, intake everything except the shortblocks. The first one was not honed with a plate. The second one was and it picked up 7 tenths and became incredibly consistent where before it wasn't. YMMV There had to be other things. I can't believe that a simple torque plate hone would result in ~3/4 of a second gain. Something else had to be off in the first shortblock. 1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10) 1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23) 1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: moparniac] #981475 04/27/11 07:05 PM 04/27/11 07:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA Leon441 master
Leon441 master Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA	Done it both ways. I have even used alluminum spacers on top of the plate and the original head studs to simulate the heads best I could. I don't know any practical way to do it because you need to stroke through the end of the cylinder but buttoms up with the head bolted on would be great IMO. But, no physical way to do it that I know of. My opinion a block run at a certain bore for a season. Then bore over .005" new pistons and then do all the tricks you can when finish honing. Even bolt the heads to the block when final sizing the guides and lap the valves. OOOOPS did I give something away. I let an engine get away that the block was done by Diamond for the Pro stock truck exhibition. They seasoned the block with a vibration process they do after every machining process. But, this was done on Mopars nickel. They never used these three blocks. But, it was a great one for me. Leon Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: viperblue72] #981476 04/27/11 08:04 PM 04/27/11 08:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,314 Charlotte, NC L LSP pro stock
LSP pro stock L Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,314 Charlotte, NC	I'd always use a plate, and same fasteners, same thread engagement, same lube, etc.. Torque plate valve jobs have been around too since the 70's that I know of. I know most of you might only get excited about air flow numbers, but all the air flow in the world won't make power, if it doesn't stay in the cylinder to work for you.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: LSP] #981477 04/27/11 08:34 PM 04/27/11 08:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,502 SOUTH JERSEY HEMIFRED master
HEMIFRED master Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,502 SOUTH JERSEY	take a good look at the cylinder walls in as few a worn blocks. You will see that some of the previous honing cross hatch is still there. It is always directly adjacent to the head bolts.That's 100% positive proof that they pulled the cylinder out of round. A plate would create the same consditoin but it gets corrected when honed home of the Sox and Martin Hemi Duster

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: daniel_depetro] #981478 04/27/11 09:04 PM 04/27/11 09:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 20,647 in a cattle trailer down by th... G Guitar Jones Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Guitar Jones Paddle faster! I hear banjo music! G Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 20,647 in a cattle trailer down by th...	Quote: Quote: I mean 7 tenths. 3.9 V6 in a Dakota. Same exact specs, cam, heads, intake everything except the shortblocks. The first one was not honed with a plate. The second one was and it picked up 7 tenths and became incredibly consistent where before it wasn't. YMMV There had to be other things. I can't believe that a simple torque plate hone would result in ~3/4 of a second gain. Something else had to be off in the first shortblock. It's possible but with a stocker every little thing helps, and this is a small engine. The truck could hardly run the index before, now it's consistently under and deadly consistent as well. Made me a believer. "Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind" '92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: Guitar Jones] #981479 04/27/11 10:36 PM 04/27/11 10:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 877 ky 68roadrunner super stock
68roadrunner super stock Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 877 ky	one of my engines, machine work was done by an unknown to me machine shop, so i checked everything. cylinder bores a couple inches down measured very different, and all cylinders was the same. so i am sure they used the torque plates they were supposed to do.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: hemiiroc] #981480 04/27/11 10:59 PM 04/27/11 10:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada Dodgem master
Dodgem master Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada	Oh that could be but definitely had high and low spots!

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: viperblue72] #981481 04/28/11 12:23 AM 04/28/11 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 113 utah J jjl member
jjl member J Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 113 utah	A filled block really has alot of distortion at the top,I always added it in on a performance build and recommended it on a stock build. formally orangemonster

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: jjl] #981482 04/28/11 01:31 AM 04/28/11 01:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,146 Melbourne , Australia LA360 master
LA360 master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,146 Melbourne , Australia	I think it is important to use the same type of head gasket also. I will say that I have to question the effectiveness of an aluminium torqueplate. I do wonder how well it simulates a cylinder head. I do know of some Comp guys that used thick cast iron plates to simulate their heavy W8 heads. AL... Alan Jones

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: viperblue72] #981483 04/28/11 04:03 AM 04/28/11 04:03 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 48 New Zealand B Big-Mike member
Big-Mike member B Joined: May 2008 Posts: 48 New Zealand	Well! I do have the difference in #'s. I built my 1st 440 BB in 1987. Used a one inch steel plate that I had made. I had it machined so it was flat & even the indents where there is a protrusion on the underside of the Head-bolts. I had a used Fel-Pro Gasket fitted as well. After the finish hone, we released the plate to do a check to see what difference there was. "Surprise", not at all! One inch down the bore it was "3-1/2 thou" at each bolt. And that is right where all your cylinder pressure has peaked. Hope this helps with making the only choice you should do. Its Not over-rated. Mike in New Zealand.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: Big-Mike] #981484 04/28/11 04:28 AM 04/28/11 04:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 413 Norway (old world) Oyvind Mopar mopar
Oyvind Mopar mopar Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 413 Norway (old world)	I have checked on some blocks, and tore up blocks that did not have torqueplates during honing: I have measured appx .001" of distortion with / without plates during machining, but seen bigger variations with or without maincaps installed (though in the bottom of cylinders, not that important). In a 502 bbc block which is a high quality block I could not find any distortion after use, and with a 414 LA 12.5:1 stroker done without honing plates the rings had made a clean polishing all the way around after only a few miles of street driving (blew a headgasket, so took it apart). If working with an SBC it should be used, when measuring it looks like the pentastar. However, I think the most important is not the plate but to get the threads stressed. So if I do not have a torque plate I use bolts and spacers to stress the threads, seems to work well (enough for a street job). My

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: viperblue72] #981485 04/28/11 12:04 PM 04/28/11 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Long story short, it turned out that my 452 had NOT been honed w/ plates the previous time it was freshened up (despite the receipt stating it had). When the current machinist strapped down the plates, the top of the bore distorted significantly. The bad news is since the block was already .060" o.s. and the bores were on the loose side, we made the decision to simply re-hone it w/o the plates AGAIN because there wasn't enough material left to do it w/ them unless I was ready to drop the $$$ for custom 4.38+" pistons. So, I've run in the 10s w/ non-plate-honed bores and can't even guess how much that may have cost in peak performance... 5 HP? 10 HP? Then we ran into the same situation where my backup 4.360" block that had also supposedly been done w/ plates also had NOT. This time I went ahead and had it re-done properly at a 4.375" bore. You can guess what my opinion is of the two other shops that were responsible for the earlier prep work.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: LA360] #981486 04/28/11 02:23 PM 04/28/11 02:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida P Performance Only top fuel
Performance Only top fuel P Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida	Quote: I think it is important to use the same type of head gasket also. I will say that I have to question the effectiveness of an aluminium torqueplate. I do wonder how well it simulates a cylinder head. I do know of some Comp guys that used thick cast iron plates to simulate their heavy W8 heads. AL... Al, you may question the effectiveness, but i can tell you we've done extensive testing on the aluminum torque plates we manufacturer and they replicate the cylinder head extremely well. a lot more science goes in to making a proper torque plate than just hogging out some aluminum to fit a block. i'm sure many would be surprised what we went through with material types, thickness, counterbore depths etc. to get it right. there are very few blocks where a torque plate won't make a difference, and none for a mopar they i've run into. all of the factory blocks distort, even the mega blocks and R blocks. machine shop owner and engine builder

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: Performance Only] #981487 04/28/11 04:09 PM 04/28/11 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,103 Phila Pa S scatpacktom master
scatpacktom master S Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,103 Phila Pa	Brad, I've been there too. I would get charged for "hone with plate" and they wern't doing it. What tipped me off was that I would tell them not to clean the block, I would wash it myself so why pay them to do it. Anyway when I would go to pick it up there would be honing grit in both banks of the headbolt holes. It would seem to me one side atleast should look like a bolt just came out of it. Well,that was the end of that. Pisses me off as I own both small and big block plates and I would leave them there. When I would pick the stuff up I could tell they hadn't been out of there crates but they would tell me they had used their own. Took me a few blocks to figure out what was going on.

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: scatpacktom] #981488 04/29/11 08:29 PM 04/29/11 08:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia Keith Black® pro stock
Keith Black® pro stock Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia	..how many people gap their rings with torque plates on ..? -------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®

Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? [Re: Keith Black®] #981489 04/29/11 09:44 PM 04/29/11 09:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT M moper I Live Here
moper I Live Here M Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT	I can measure the change in bore size between the bolts without the head. Especially on a small block with 4 big bolts. It's critical on a modern rebuild IMO. Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.

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