Moparts
HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED?
Posted By: viperblue72
HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:00 PM
How many of you do or don't hone with torque plates and what's your experiences? I noiced one of the engine masters engines mentioned not bothering with it. I'm guessing it all depends on how rigid the cylinder walls are? Has anybody ever measured the cylinder walls with then without the deck plate to see if there's distortion and how much. My guess is that maybe there's a little power to be had there but maybe not.
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:03 PM
Quote:
How many of you do or don't hone with torque plates and what's your experiences? I noiced one of the engine masters engines mentioned not bothering with it. I'm guessing it all depends on how rigid the cylinder walls are? Has anybody ever measured the cylinder walls with then without the deck plate to see if there's distortion and how much. My guess is that maybe there's a little power to be had there but maybe not.
It was worth .7 on my buddys V6 stocker.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:13 PM
Posted By: Dragula
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:29 PM
It's a must do...
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:29 PM
Quote:
It was worth .7 on my buddys V6 stocker.
Details?
Posted By: racingblues1426
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:32 PM
Did you mean .07 or .7 as almost 1 tenth???
Posted By: Von
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:36 PM
My machinist told me that BB Mopes usually distort quite a bit...He told me how much the block he just machined for me (400) distorted, but cant remember the exact specs. Sounded like a pretty good amount.
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
It was worth .7 on my buddys V6 stocker.
Details?
I mean 7 tenths. 3.9 V6 in a Dakota. Same exact specs, cam, heads, intake everything except the shortblocks. The first one was not honed with a plate. The second one was and it picked up 7 tenths and became incredibly consistent where before it wasn't. YMMV
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 07:57 PM
back in the day 1993 ish I was building a new motor and my machinist was going to use a torque plate. he showed me the cylinder bores perfectly round and hone ran smooth. Then he bolted the torque plate on to simulate the head being torqued and re measured and dam it distorted the cylinders a lot (pushed into the bore at each bolt hole!) then he ran the hone and it was rough he said you have to take the high spots down.
I wonder how much less studs distort the bores?
Posted By: viperblue72
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:01 PM
Wow! Good to know some real world examples. Seems like it would be even better to heat the block to operating temperature and torque plate hone. Well it looks like I won't be skipping that procedure. Thanks guys.
Posted By: hemiiroc
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:05 PM
Quote:
back in the day 1993 ish I was building a new motor and my machinist was going to use a torque plate. he showed me the cylinder bores perfectly round and hone ran smooth. Then he bolted the torque plate on to simulate the head being torqued and re measured and dam it distorted the cylinders a lot (pushed into the bore at each bolt hole!) then he ran the hone and it was rough he said you have to take the high spots down.
I wonder how much less studs distort the bores?
All the ones i've done pull the cylinder in at the bolt holes..it usually takes .002-.003 to take the distortion out
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:05 PM
take perfectly round cylinders, attach a deck plate, and remeasure. you will be amazed.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:06 PM
Its worth mentioning that the heads are not the only thing that can distort it, albeit they do the most. Many engine shops will have you bolt as much of your setup on the block as you can including engine mounts and whatnot.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:08 PM
Depends on the engine block. Some engines need torque plates and some don't. It is a good idea for a Mopar big block or small block.
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:18 PM
Quote:
I noiced one of the engine masters engines mentioned not bothering with it.
did they win?
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:27 PM
Bottom line....better ring seal, longer life, more HP/torque. Some people go so far as to install a torque plate on each head, use the same style head gaskets as will be used on the final assembly, run warm water through the block, torque the main caps to spec.......every little bit helps. Diminishing returns, but returns none-the-less. (Certainly can't hurt!) It's just a matter of how much time & money you want to invest.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:32 PM
Quote:
Bottom line....better ring seal, longer life, more HP/torque. Some people go so far as to install a torque plate on each head, use the same style head gaskets as will be used on the final assembly, run warm water through the block, torque the main caps to spec.......every little bit helps. Diminishing returns, but returns none-the-less. (Certainly can't hurt!) It's just a matter of how much time & money you want to invest.
As with all things stocker related, one single thing will not typically make a huge difference. Its the combined aggregate of all those things that results in a fast car 
Posted By: viperblue72
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 08:49 PM
Great information guys. I always know ill get well informed answers here.
Thanks again.
Posted By: Keith Black®
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 09:16 PM
be interesting to know the with/without distortion on say, a block with liners and studs..
Posted By: sshemi
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 09:16 PM
If its a bb or hemi i would say yes, its worth it.
My last stock block hemi was very not striaght without torque plates.
Aldough on a sb im not so sure.
They seem to be straight with or without a plate.
Posted By: moparniac
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 09:39 PM
I got my world block from Ray Barton and he told me they hone with torque plate and heat ran thru the block.
Posted By: daniel_depetro
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 11:03 PM
Quote:
I mean 7 tenths. 3.9 V6 in a Dakota. Same exact specs, cam, heads, intake everything except the shortblocks. The first one was not honed with a plate. The second one was and it picked up 7 tenths and became incredibly consistent where before it wasn't. YMMV
There had to be other things. I can't believe that a simple torque plate hone would result in ~3/4 of a second gain.
Something else had to be off in the first shortblock.
Posted By: Leon441
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/27/11 11:05 PM
Done it both ways. I have even used alluminum spacers on top of the plate and the original head studs to simulate the heads best I could. I don't know any practical way to do it because you need to stroke through the end of the cylinder but buttoms up with the head bolted on would be great IMO. But, no physical way to do it that I know of.
My opinion a block run at a certain bore for a season. Then bore over .005" new pistons and then do all the tricks you can when finish honing. Even bolt the heads to the block when final sizing the guides and lap the valves. OOOOPS did I give something away.
I let an engine get away that the block was done by Diamond for the Pro stock truck exhibition. They seasoned the block with a vibration process they do after every machining process. But, this was done on Mopars nickel. They never used these three blocks. But, it was a great one for me.
Leon
Posted By: LSP
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 12:04 AM
I'd always use a plate, and same fasteners, same thread engagement, same lube, etc.. Torque plate valve jobs have been around too since the 70's that I know of.
I know most of you might only get excited about air flow numbers, but all the air flow in the world won't make power, if it doesn't stay in the cylinder to work for you.
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 12:34 AM
take a good look at the cylinder walls in as few a worn blocks. You will see that some of the previous honing cross hatch is still there.
It is always directly adjacent to the head bolts.That's 100% positive proof that they pulled the cylinder out of round. A plate would create the same consditoin but it gets corrected when honed
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 01:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I mean 7 tenths. 3.9 V6 in a Dakota. Same exact specs, cam, heads, intake everything except the shortblocks. The first one was not honed with a plate. The second one was and it picked up 7 tenths and became incredibly consistent where before it wasn't. YMMV
There had to be other things. I can't believe that a simple torque plate hone would result in ~3/4 of a second gain.
Something else had to be off in the first shortblock.
It's possible but with a stocker every little thing helps, and this is a small engine. The truck could hardly run the index before, now it's consistently under and deadly consistent as well.
Made me a believer.
Posted By: 68roadrunner
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 02:36 AM
one of my engines, machine work was done by an unknown to me machine shop, so i checked everything. cylinder bores a couple inches down measured very different, and all cylinders was the same. so i am sure they used the torque plates they were supposed to do.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 02:59 AM
Oh that could be but definitely had high and low spots!
Posted By: jjl
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 04:23 AM
A filled block really has alot of distortion at the top,I always added it in on a performance build and recommended it on a stock build.
Posted By: LA360
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 05:31 AM
I think it is important to use the same type of head gasket also. I will say that I have to question the effectiveness of an aluminium torqueplate. I do wonder how well it simulates a cylinder head. I do know of some Comp guys that used thick cast iron plates to simulate their heavy W8 heads.
AL...
Posted By: Big-Mike
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 08:03 AM
Well! I do have the difference in #'s.
I built my 1st 440 BB in 1987. Used a one inch steel plate that I had made. I had it machined so it was flat & even the indents where there is a protrusion on the underside of the Head-bolts.
I had a used Fel-Pro Gasket fitted as well.
After the finish hone, we released the plate to do a check to see what difference there was.
"Surprise", not at all! One inch down the bore it was "3-1/2 thou" at each bolt.
And that is right where all your cylinder pressure has peaked.
Hope this helps with making the only choice you should do.
Its Not over-rated.
Mike in New Zealand.
Posted By: Oyvind Mopar
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 08:28 AM
I have checked on some blocks, and tore up blocks that did not have torqueplates during honing: I have measured appx .001" of distortion with / without plates during machining, but seen bigger variations with or without maincaps installed (though in the bottom of cylinders, not that important). In a 502 bbc block which is a high quality block I could not find any distortion after use, and with a 414 LA 12.5:1 stroker done without honing plates the rings had made a clean polishing all the way around after only a few miles of street driving (blew a headgasket, so took it apart). If working with an SBC it should be used, when measuring it looks like the pentastar. However, I think the most important is not the plate but to get the threads stressed. So if I do not have a torque plate I use bolts and spacers to stress the threads, seems to work well (enough for a street job). My
Posted By: BradH
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 04:04 PM
Long story short, it turned out that my 452 had NOT been honed w/ plates the previous time it was freshened up (despite the receipt stating it had). When the current machinist strapped down the plates, the top of the bore distorted significantly. The bad news is since the block was already .060" o.s. and the bores were on the loose side, we made the decision to simply re-hone it w/o the plates AGAIN because there wasn't enough material left to do it w/ them unless I was ready to drop the $$$ for custom 4.38+" pistons. So, I've run in the 10s w/ non-plate-honed bores and can't even guess how much that may have cost in peak performance... 5 HP? 10 HP?
Then we ran into the same situation where my backup 4.360" block that had also supposedly been done w/ plates also had NOT. This time I went ahead and had it re-done properly at a 4.375" bore. You can guess what my opinion is of the two other shops that were responsible for the earlier prep work.
Posted By: Performance Only
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 06:23 PM
Quote:
I think it is important to use the same type of head gasket also. I will say that I have to question the effectiveness of an aluminium torqueplate. I do wonder how well it simulates a cylinder head. I do know of some Comp guys that used thick cast iron plates to simulate their heavy W8 heads.
AL...
Al, you may question the effectiveness, but i can tell you we've done extensive testing on the aluminum torque plates we manufacturer and they replicate the cylinder head extremely well. a lot more science goes in to making a proper torque plate than just hogging out some aluminum to fit a block. i'm sure many would be surprised what we went through with material types, thickness, counterbore depths etc. to get it right.
there are very few blocks where a torque plate won't make a difference, and none for a mopar they i've run into.
all of the factory blocks distort, even the mega blocks and R blocks.
Posted By: scatpacktom
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/28/11 08:09 PM
Brad, I've been there too. I would get charged for "hone with plate" and they wern't doing it. What tipped me off was that I would tell them not to clean the block, I would wash it myself so why pay them to do it. Anyway when I would go to pick it up there would be honing grit in both banks of the headbolt holes.
It would seem to me one side atleast should look like a bolt just came out of it.
Well,that was the end of that. Pisses me off as I own both small and big block plates and I would leave them there. When I would pick the stuff up I could tell they hadn't been out of there crates but they would tell me they had used their own. Took me a few blocks to figure out what was going on.
Posted By: Keith Black®
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/30/11 12:29 AM
..how many people gap their rings with torque plates on ..?
Posted By: moper
Re: HONING WITH TRQ PlATES OVER RATED? - 04/30/11 01:44 AM
I can measure the change in bore size between the bolts without the head. Especially on a small block with 4 big bolts. It's critical on a modern rebuild IMO.