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Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! #956951
03/23/11 01:42 PM
03/23/11 01:42 PM
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Fellas -

I'm building a road race engine and it's time to pick the camshaft. I'm new to road racing, so could use a bit of advice here.

Car is a 1971 Javelin AMX. Yes, I know it's not a Mopar, but AMC used Mopar parts, so I think it's kind of a stepbrother to a Mopar.

Anyway, the plan is to keep the car street legal (barely) and race it in the NASA American Iron series. Should weigh about 3,200 pounds with driver. Trans is a T-10 close ratio (2.23 first), 9" rear with a 3.50 gear. Engine is a .030 401 that's been balanced. Forged crank, rods, and pistons. Aluminum flywheel. 9.8:1 compression (a little lower than I would like, but can live with it). Stock Edelbrock aluminum heads. Single plane intake (Torker) with a Holley (have a few to choose from; thinking 750 DP or something like that). Max rpm is going to be 6,500 or so. Headers and 3" exhaust. Plan to run a solid flat tappet cam. Edelbrock says no higher than .580 lift with their springs. Manual brakes, so no need to worry about vacuum. Not worried about idle quality, either.

Guess my first question is what do folks look for in a road race cam? I'm thinking that a nice flat torque curve would be nice, with hp up to 6,500 or so. Problem I see is that a wide LC (112?) will give me a flat torque curve and a tight LC (106?) will give me more max torque and increase my cylinder pressure, which I think will help with my somewhat low compression. Think a larger cam with a wide LC will be lazy with 9.8:1. Figure I will be making around 450 hp with the right cam.

Here are a few grinds that I think are in the ballpark:

Comp has a solid flat tappet cam that may be a bit too big - it's the 290B6 or 10-601-5 Hi Tech. 255/266 @ .050, .576/.570, 106 LC. RPM range of 3800-6800 sounds about right. I'm right at the limit with the stock springs here, too.

Crane has a solid that's a bit smaller - #861201, 238/248 @ .050, .512/.533, 112 LC.

Crane PowerMax #861241 sounds good except for the wide LC - 248/258 @ .050, .533/.555, 112 LC.

I like the Comp Hi Tech with the 106 LC, but it may be a bit too big. I can also get something custom ground for not too much $.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: bulletpruf] #956952
03/23/11 06:04 PM
03/23/11 06:04 PM
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My first thought is do the heads have to remain in stock OOTB condition? I agree that a broad power band is better than a higher peak power at the expense of flexibility. I know good head work isn't cheap, but I've come to believe that it's one area where it's worth spending some money. Chamber work will cost some compression, but simple milling will get that back with interest. If the heads flow better you may need less cam to get the job done. As for the cam 109-110 for the LSA should work OK. Check with your favorite cam grinder and see what they think.

Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: 5spdcuda] #956953
03/23/11 06:11 PM
03/23/11 06:11 PM
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Denison,Ia.
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Cuda367 Offline
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Just have comp change the LS to 110 and put it in at 108.

Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: Cuda367] #956954
03/23/11 06:57 PM
03/23/11 06:57 PM
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Do away with the torker and get an air gap or performer RPM it will give you a wider torque curve without much loss in top end power if any. Plus a custom cam.

Last edited by w7smallblock; 03/23/11 06:58 PM.
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: 5spdcuda] #956955
03/23/11 07:16 PM
03/23/11 07:16 PM
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

My first thought is do the heads have to remain in stock OOTB condition? I agree that a broad power band is better than a higher peak power at the expense of flexibility. I know good head work isn't cheap, but I've come to believe that it's one area where it's worth spending some money. Chamber work will cost some compression, but simple milling will get that back with interest. If the heads flow better you may need less cam to get the job done. As for the cam 109-110 for the LSA should work OK. Check with your favorite cam grinder and see what they think.




Heads can be ported, but this doesn't need to be a max hp effort. American Iron has a hp/weight (9.5:1) and torque/weight (9:1) max. I'll bust both easily with this engine. However, I have at least a season (likely 2) before I actually start racing wheel to wheel in AI; need to get my competition license and some seat time first.

Once I'm ready to build a legal engine, I'll probably do a 304 or 360 so I don't have to radically detune it to be legal. Don't think the ported heads will be necessary.

I'll check with the cam folks, but it's kind of hit and miss when you call the tech line. Sometimes you get someone sharp, sometimes you don't...

Thanks

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: w7smallblock] #956956
03/23/11 07:19 PM
03/23/11 07:19 PM
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San Antonio, Tx
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Quote:

Do away with the torker and get an air gap or performer RPM it will give you a wider torque curve without much loss in top end power if any. Plus a custom cam.




No Air Gap for AMC. Will see if I can find a dyno comparison between the Torker and RPM.

Will check on a custom cam as well.

Thanks

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: bulletpruf] #956957
03/23/11 11:00 PM
03/23/11 11:00 PM
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

Fellas -

I'm building a road race engine and it's time to pick the camshaft. I'm new to road racing, so could use a bit of advice here.

............

Your thoughts?





Not sure what you are trying to achieve other then "road racing'. From my experience, if you are on the track by yourself, low end grunt is fun, but with street adapted cars/chassis's, putting the torque down is rather difficult on corner exits, but if you are trying to pass the car in front of you, its almost always done at the top end (ie HP), with overtaking combined with out braking.

I would just build a well tuned, balanced, reliable, able to be flogged motor, and get the driver some seat time first, the motor is not that important until the driver, tires/suspension and brakes are sorted out first.

Just reread your question, forget the motor, if you are going NASA, you need seat time before anything

Last edited by jcc; 03/23/11 11:05 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: jcc] #956958
03/24/11 12:09 AM
03/24/11 12:09 AM
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start reading up on oiling mods for the amc v8 also. your going to need it done in that application to keep from losing the bottom end.
similar mods that are done to a cleveland series ford btw. once thats done it should be fine.

steve


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Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: gremlinsteve] #956959
03/24/11 12:59 AM
03/24/11 12:59 AM
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My favorite AMC ever; worked on the restoration of this one. Don't remember much about the motor, except it was, uh, on the big side (like most of the other cars) when we ran it in the vintage races in the '90s. I seem to recall that the '68 AMC effort was plagued with engine problems; this car has a dry sump system. And the most wicked V8 exhaust I've ever heard. It spent a lot of time between 4500-7500 as I recall, but it had more gear than yours.

6546355-OurJav.JPG (206 downloads)
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: topside] #956960
03/24/11 01:00 AM
03/24/11 01:00 AM
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Side shot.

6546358-OurJav2.JPG (170 downloads)
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: topside] #956961
03/24/11 03:17 AM
03/24/11 03:17 AM
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So Cal
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Don't forget to get a good oil pan...

"AMC road race pans in internal and external pickup configurations. Both AMC pans feature full competition baffling with 5 doors and 7 baffle assemblies, and they’re 7 inches deep with a 6 quart capacity."


Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: jcc] #956962
03/24/11 11:35 AM
03/24/11 11:35 AM
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San Antonio, Tx
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Fellas -

I'm building a road race engine and it's time to pick the camshaft. I'm new to road racing, so could use a bit of advice here.

............

Your thoughts?





Not sure what you are trying to achieve other then "road racing'. From my experience, if you are on the track by yourself, low end grunt is fun, but with street adapted cars/chassis's, putting the torque down is rather difficult on corner exits, but if you are trying to pass the car in front of you, its almost always done at the top end (ie HP), with overtaking combined with out braking.

I would just build a well tuned, balanced, reliable, able to be flogged motor, and get the driver some seat time first, the motor is not that important until the driver, tires/suspension and brakes are sorted out first.

Just reread your question, forget the motor, if you are going NASA, you need seat time before anything




Well, I don't know if I can "forget the motor" but I understand your point. I'm not going to go crazy at this point, but if I'm spending $ on a cam, I might as well try to find something that is in the ballpark.

Thanks,

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: gremlinsteve] #956963
03/24/11 11:37 AM
03/24/11 11:37 AM
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

start reading up on oiling mods for the amc v8 also. your going to need it done in that application to keep from losing the bottom end.
similar mods that are done to a cleveland series ford btw. once thats done it should be fine.

steve




Yep, the AMC V8 does benefit from oil mods. I've done a few - - oil line added in the valley, drain holes enlarged in valley and to timing cover, Bulltear oil pump, etc.

Thanks

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: topside] #956964
03/24/11 11:42 AM
03/24/11 11:42 AM
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San Antonio, Tx
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

My favorite AMC ever; worked on the restoration of this one. Don't remember much about the motor, except it was, uh, on the big side (like most of the other cars) when we ran it in the vintage races in the '90s. I seem to recall that the '68 AMC effort was plagued with engine problems; this car has a dry sump system. And the most wicked V8 exhaust I've ever heard. It spent a lot of time between 4500-7500 as I recall, but it had more gear than yours.




Definitely a sweet car. Mine is currently Canary Yellow, but will either go red/white/blue (Penske) or yellow/black (Revson/Woods AMX) - -



Thanks,

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: autoxcuda] #956965
03/24/11 11:48 AM
03/24/11 11:48 AM
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Quote:

Don't forget to get a good oil pan...

"AMC road race pans in internal and external pickup configurations. Both AMC pans feature full competition baffling with 5 doors and 7 baffle assemblies, and they’re 7 inches deep with a 6 quart capacity."






Yep. That's next on the shopping list. Choices are Canton, Armando's and Milodon. Will probably go with Canton; price is pretty good and it has more capacity than the Milodon.

Thanks

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: bulletpruf] #956966
03/24/11 12:32 PM
03/24/11 12:32 PM
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RADAMX Offline
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Quote:



No Air Gap for AMC. Will see if I can find a dyno comparison between the Torker and RPM.

Will check on a custom cam as well.

Thanks

Scott




yes there are air gaps for amc

Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: RADAMX] #956967
03/24/11 12:50 PM
03/24/11 12:50 PM
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:



No Air Gap for AMC. Will see if I can find a dyno comparison between the Torker and RPM.

Will check on a custom cam as well.

Thanks

Scott




yes there are air gaps for amc





Yeah, realized that after I posted it.

Thanks

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: RADAMX] #956968
03/24/11 12:53 PM
03/24/11 12:53 PM
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Bulletpruf, the yellow & black RWR car is either the #1 or the #2 red/white/blue RWR; the Javelin next to it in your pic (with Penske crouched next to it) is the one that was just at auction. Woods used to buy Penske's previous-year racers (whatever they were, including Indy cars). The RWR Javelins were re-bodied (noses & quarters) Penske '70 Javelins. There was a lapse in the AMC factory deal coming to RWR, at which time the color scheme changed.

Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: topside] #956969
03/24/11 02:07 PM
03/24/11 02:07 PM
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San Antonio, Tx
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bulletpruf Offline OP
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Quote:

Bulletpruf, the yellow & black RWR car is either the #1 or the #2 red/white/blue RWR; the Javelin next to it in your pic (with Penske crouched next to it) is the one that was just at auction. Woods used to buy Penske's previous-year racers (whatever they were, including Indy cars). The RWR Javelins were re-bodied (noses & quarters) Penske '70 Javelins. There was a lapse in the AMC factory deal coming to RWR, at which time the color scheme changed.




Thanks for the details.

Scott


Please Check Out My YouTube Channel for Vintage Musclecar and Truck Rescues and Builds -- https://www.youtube.com/@THEBULLETPROOFGARAGE/videos
Re: Road Race Cam Specs? Warning - Some AMC Content! [Re: bulletpruf] #956970
03/24/11 03:15 PM
03/24/11 03:15 PM
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Before I dropped money on a bunch of wetsump stuff , I'd price a dry sump setup just to see for much more it would cost to do it right the 1st time. S/F.....Ken M

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