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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930934
02/20/11 07:38 PM
02/20/11 07:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
top fuel
Mattax  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
I just reread some of your post 'cause I had missed where you mentioned a spare dizzy.
First check for side play in the dizzy. As long as you have one that is OK, next start testing.
Do the easy stuff first. Taking the guts out is time consuming so go collect data first - it'll be more fun too.
Check to see if that 6 BTDC was with the vacuum advance hose plugged or not. Good chance if you were real new to things then, it might not have been. In that case the engine was seeing 6 plus the vac advance unless you have the vacuum advance hooked to the carb's 'ported vacuum' or if there is little engine vac at idle.

In your notebook, record the rpm and the timing. Do this with vac advance hooked up, and with the vacuum hose plugged.
Second, with the vacuum hose plugged, measure the full timing advance. You can either do this by taking it to the rpm it stops advancing, or use 2500 - 3000 rpm. The former is more complete info (but scarier to do) and the latter is what the Mopar Performance and many others use as a reference point. Most small block distributors will be fully in somewheres in this rpm range anyway.

You will need either timing tape on the damper (cheap!) or a timing light that can be adjusted (called dial back). With a stock damper, I like the MP timing tape 'cause it has white marks on black background. For timing lights, I've been most happy with the digital one (arcus brand?) I bought through Northern tool. It has dial back and rpm readout. Makes it easy to measure a whole bunch of points so I can draw a plot of the whole timing curve.

When you take the distributor apart, the advance slots are stamped with the number of degrees. So until you mess with it, that (divided by 2) will be the degrees of mechanical advance. Your advance plus initial should equal the max measured.

Tune on the track or the dyno for max mph, then you'll know if any changes need to be made in the amount of advance (slots). Once you have the amount of advance done, and therefore idle and total, then play with springs and vac canisters as you like.

Oh, Whats this about and Orange Box AND and MSD6? With any MSD 6, the Chrysler ECU should be strictly for back up.

Wires. Since you're using the stock style high voltage wires, when these get to the end of their life, get the best you can afford. I've found the Taylor-Vortex caps are really heavy and well made, and their wires are pretty good but not so heavy. MSD's wires are also pretty good and seem to be slightly more heat resistant.

So will you pick up a 1/10? I think it depends a lot on the current condition of your ignition and most of all the maximum advance. On my current motor, we found 2-4 degrees less than 32 really hurt horsepower from 3500-6000. In fact it was putting the peak hp down at 5200 instead of over 5600. Remember HP gains are more visible in the mph than the et so for testing, you want to record both.

Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: Mattax] #930935
02/20/11 08:01 PM
02/20/11 08:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
R
rockerbob Offline OP
mopar
rockerbob  Offline OP
mopar
R

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
Quote:

I just reread some of your post 'cause I had missed where you mentioned a spare dizzy.
First check for side play in the dizzy. As long as you have one that is OK, next start testing.
Do the easy stuff first. Taking the guts out is time consuming so go collect data first - it'll be more fun too.
Check to see if that 6 BTDC was with the vacuum advance hose plugged or not. Good chance if you were real new to things then, it might not have been. In that case the engine was seeing 6 plus the vac advance unless you have the vacuum advance hooked to the carb's 'ported vacuum' or if there is little engine vac at idle.

In your notebook, record the rpm and the timing. Do this with vac advance hooked up, and with the vacuum hose plugged.
Second, with the vacuum hose plugged, measure the full timing advance. You can either do this by taking it to the rpm it stops advancing, or use 2500 - 3000 rpm. The former is more complete info (but scarier to do) and the latter is what the Mopar Performance and many others use as a reference point. Most small block distributors will be fully in somewheres in this rpm range anyway.

You will need either timing tape on the damper (cheap!) or a timing light that can be adjusted (called dial back). With a stock damper, I like the MP timing tape 'cause it has white marks on black background. For timing lights, I've been most happy with the digital one (arcus brand?) I bought through Northern tool. It has dial back and rpm readout. Makes it easy to measure a whole bunch of points so I can draw a plot of the whole timing curve.

When you take the distributor apart, the advance slots are stamped with the number of degrees. So until you mess with it, that (divided by 2) will be the degrees of mechanical advance. Your advance plus initial should equal the max measured.

Tune on the track or the dyno for max mph, then you'll know if any changes need to be made in the amount of advance (slots). Once you have the amount of advance done, and therefore idle and total, then play with springs and vac canisters as you like.

Oh, Whats this about and Orange Box AND and MSD6? With any MSD 6, the Chrysler ECU should be strictly for back up.

Wires. Since you're using the stock style high voltage wires, when these get to the end of their life, get the best you can afford. I've found the Taylor-Vortex caps are really heavy and well made, and their wires are pretty good but not so heavy. MSD's wires are also pretty good and seem to be slightly more heat resistant.

So will you pick up a 1/10? I think it depends a lot on the current condition of your ignition and most of all the maximum advance. On my current motor, we found 2-4 degrees less than 32 really hurt horsepower from 3500-6000. In fact it was putting the peak hp down at 5200 instead of over 5600. Remember HP gains are more visible in the mph than the et so for testing, you want to record both.




My spare dizzy is tight. No play. I cant remember where I got it. I think it too was from a 70's era car? I'm not new to working on cars, just new to bracket racing & it is different than stock style street cars I played with in the past. I set the timming with new plugs installed & gaped at .032. I disconected the vac hose at the distributor & pluged it. I'm pretty sure the idle remained the same. 750 in park say about 650 in gear. Car accelerates very good. No bog, cough or hesitation. Regardless of the weather. From 102 to 40 it runs well. I bought a timing tape last winter with the intention of doing the dizy tuning & the darn thing fell off on the track. I origanly had the stock ECU box on the car, but it died & I put an orange box on kit & the car picked up et (I have recorded 2 numbers) I was told I did not need the Chrysler box, but I could not get the car to start when I installed the MSD 6AL, so I called MSD & talked to a tech guy & he said I had to run it. So I wired it in (CHrysler ECU)& the car started on the first try. So I left it alone. The MSD box also helped the car. I would like to do these dizy tricks you guys are recomending & elimate the vac. canister. I have been taking notes & plan on being back on the track by April so then I hopefull can try this stuff. Painted my new custom dash today & will reasemble it & hook everything up by next weekend hopefully.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930936
02/21/11 12:06 AM
02/21/11 12:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
top fuel
Mattax  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
cool. Have fun.
Here's a good a guide for estimating initial timing requirements on modified engines.
http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/default.aspx?page=5
If it ends up being happy at 6 or 8, then thats that. More advance is not better, its just that its usually needed. You can see on the chart how increased duration (and therefore overlap) relates to initial timing.

Sounds like something with the start wire and the ballast resister layout. Yea, if works, I agree just leave for another day or never.

Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: Mattax] #930937
02/21/11 06:47 AM
02/21/11 06:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
R
rockerbob Offline OP
mopar
rockerbob  Offline OP
mopar
R

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
Quote:

cool. Have fun.
Here's a good a guide for estimating initial timing requirements on modified engines.
http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/default.aspx?page=5
If it ends up being happy at 6 or 8, then thats that. More advance is not better, its just that its usually needed. You can see on the chart how increased duration (and therefore overlap) relates to initial timing.

Sounds like something with the start wire and the ballast resister layout. Yea, if works, I agree just leave for another day or never.




Thanks Mattax. That is a helpfull chart. The reason I have a wimpy 318 in a bracket car is because when I bought the car from a junk yard it was a running driving car with a title. I did an amature resto on it & drove it on the street for a while. And one thing led to another & now it has a cage, spool, fiberglass parts, worked 904, etc. It wins rounds & I have fun with it. So what the heck, the 318 stays for now. Thyanks again for your help! You too Rapid Robert!


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
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