Most valve lift on stock 318?
#715754
06/04/10 12:48 AM
06/04/10 12:48 AM
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Posts: 1,018 Hazlet, NJ
440Satellite
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I'm trying to wake up my late 70's 318 in my 72 Duster until I build a new motor. I'm getting ready to port a set of "302" closed chamber heads to boost compression a little and want to put in a new cam. Does anyone know whats the most lift I can get away with on a 318 with stock pistons without hitting the pistons. I know you can notcch the pistons but I just want to throw on some heads and cam, it .491 too much or shouls it be ok? Thanks
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: 440Satellite]
#715755
06/04/10 06:20 AM
06/04/10 06:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 638 Phoenix AZ
Guido
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It has been a while since I thought about my Mopar stuff, but I would think this swap depends on whether it is a manual or auto shift car.
If it is an automatic you will definately need a stall converter with a .491 lift cam. I swapped in a .472 and it was a dog off the line and didn`t really wake up until over 3,000 rpm`s using a stock torque converter.
So, if you say you are only wanting to swap on some heads and a cam, you can use better valve springs so they won`t bind and get more lift, but you will need to deal with other area`s in the process to make it all work well together, namely, the torque converter.
If it is a manual shift car then the TQ isn`t as much a factor, you will just need a higher rpm and a little clutch fading to get it rolling without roasting the tires off every stop. That example might be a little much using your .491 lift, but it starts to get unfriendly street manners when the lift goes way up on the cam.
This should be a good topic to keep an eye on for other responses, I haven``t been here in a long while. Guido
Madness Takes It`s Toll, ...... Please Have Exact Change.
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Guido]
#715756
06/04/10 08:04 AM
06/04/10 08:04 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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need to watch retainer to valve guide clearance and piston to valve clearance i run a .485 lift roller cam in my 318 with stock untouched 360 heads,(88-360 headed 318 cop engine never been apart yet) i swaped to comp-901-16 springs and used all stock retainers,valve seals,push rods,rockers lunati voodoo roller cam 60710 258/264 .485/.485 lift work great for a daily driver in a stock engine in a stepside truck the comp springs drop on and .485 lift works great,IMHO if it has the rotators on the exhast valve,drop those and use 8 more intake retainers and spring the rotators make the exhast spring and clearance less in stock fourm..will not take much lift with them on the spring
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#715757
06/04/10 08:14 AM
06/04/10 08:14 AM
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Joined: May 2003
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scratchnfotraction
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I Live Here
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on a stock 318 short dur @ 50 and as much lift as it will take works more dur and it becomes a dog like said above my roller cam is 258/264 207/213 @ .050 bump it up around 230 @ .050 and its a dog with out a 3000 rpm stall and gears any thing over 230 @ .050 is not street friendly and very choppy remember whats big for a 318 is mild on a 360 318s are vary ez to over cam and turn it to a dog
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#715758
06/04/10 11:35 AM
06/04/10 11:35 AM
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Ok, This is what I have... 72 Duster with stock rebuild 318( was done before I bought the car) and a 4 speed OD manual trans and 3:91 sure grip 8 3/4 rear. Right now the engine has an Edelbrock performer cam ( 204 duration at .050 and 420 lift)lifers and soposedly springs combined with an Edelbrock performer intake, Holley 650 carb, headers, and a Mopar Performance distributer and contol box and an MSD coil. The heads are open chamber 318 heads that appear to be untouched.
I'm going to be building a 390 stroker(because I got a great deal on a set of Diamond forged pistons and Eagle SIR rods)but its going to be a while till I piece it all together so I want to give the current 318 a little more.
Right now I have a Comp XE274 which is a 230/236 @ .050 and .488/.491 and a 110 LCA, and a Crane H-278 which is 222/234 @ .050 with .467/.494 lift and 114 LCA that I can use, and a set of Comp springs, along with a set of "302" casting 318 heads that had 1.88 intake and 1.60 exhaust valves installed.
I plan on porting the "302" heads and was thinking that the Performer cam is too small, the reason I have the Comp and Crane cams is that I was planning on building a 360 short block that I bought used that was bored .030 with forged TRW slugs untill I decieded on a stroker.
So what do you think, are both of those came too big for the 318, do you think with that lift the valves will hit the pistons? I figure with the closed chambered "302" heads and a thin .028 head gasket I should get a decent boost in compression, so I figured one of those came wouldnt bee too bad, but not ideal. So stick with the performer cam or use the Comp or Crane.
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Paul_Fancsali]
#715760
06/04/10 01:08 PM
06/04/10 01:08 PM
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Yeah I know a 260 or 268 would be the much better choise, its just that I have these 2 cams already, the Comp is used but in perfect shape and the Crane is new.
And yes it is the standard Performer intake(was on it already) I am planning on getting a Performer RPM Air Gap eventually and using it on the 390 build. You really think the Performer is worse than a stock cast iron? How about the cheaper Crosswind or Summit Racing brand(probably the same thing) RPM copy intakes, I doubt there as good as the Edelbrock but are they better than a Performer? I've seen those for $150.
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Paul_Fancsali]
#715763
06/04/10 01:54 PM
06/04/10 01:54 PM
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Joined: May 2003
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scratchnfotraction
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I Live Here
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herd to beat an LD340 or the LD4B for a 318 head right up there with the airgap night and day over a performer
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#715764
06/04/10 02:35 PM
06/04/10 02:35 PM
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Thanks guys, I quess I'll go serching for an LD 340 or LD4B. I saw a rightup were they opened up the intake port(just the opening) on the 318 "302" head to 360 size to mate with a 340/360 intake. Thats an option too.
So back to cams, Performer, Comp or Crane? What will work the best out of the 3 and what will fit without flycutting the pistons?
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#715766
06/04/10 04:09 PM
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Ok the 901 Comp springs is what I have, so they should be ok. Now I understand the the clearence for the valve guide to retainer, make sure the retainer doesnt hit the top of the valve guide at full lift, correct. But what is the rotator? I just disasembled the heads and there were the standard spring, retainer and locks and under the spring was a washer, I'm guessing its a shim to get the springs to specs with the cam he was using. So what it the rotator and where is it located, sorry for the ignorance!!!
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#715768
06/04/10 06:02 PM
06/04/10 06:02 PM
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Yeah all the retainers look the same so I quess it doesnt have them. I already have a good running Holley 650 so I'm gonna stay with that. The 318 is pretty quick right now in the Duster but I just want a little more until I build the 390. I'll look for a better intake and port match to my heads, do a mild port job on the heads and maybe try out the Comp XE274 cam and see how it is.
Hey maybe someone knows, the valves are stock type with the little ramp right before the seating surface, would it be of any gain to shave the ramp off the valves? I know performance stainless valves dont have this.
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: 440Satellite]
#715769
06/04/10 06:21 PM
06/04/10 06:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
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forphorty
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Quote:
Yeah all the retainers look the same so I quess it doesnt have them. I already have a good running Holley 650 so I'm gonna stay with that. The 318 is pretty quick right now in the Duster but I just want a little more until I build the 390. I'll look for a better intake and port match to my heads, do a mild port job on the heads and maybe try out the Comp XE274 cam and see how it is.
Hey maybe someone knows, the valves are stock type with the little ramp right before the seating surface, would it be of any gain to shave the ramp off the valves? I know performance stainless valves dont have this.
Butch
What you are talking about is called backcutting and will be beneficial on the intake valves. Mainly improves low lift flow. whether it is worthwhile on the exhaust is debatable. Some people say that leaving the ramp helps to impede reversion.
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: forphorty]
#715770
06/04/10 06:32 PM
06/04/10 06:32 PM
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Is it posible to back cut the valves at home using a bench grinder and a made up jig, or best to leave to a shop? If so any idea what it would cost?
Butch
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: 440Satellite]
#715771
06/04/10 07:05 PM
06/04/10 07:05 PM
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Posts: 2,511 Tampa , Fl
MoparJoe
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I know the xe268 fits in a stock piston 318- I ran one for a few years, I ran it with a 2,400 stall and 3.91's.
My current 318 has the crane .467/.494 but I have KB167 pistons with valve reliefs, I have some warmed up #302's on it and a 833/4.10 rear, it makes pretty good torque, I built it for a truck and ended up sticking it in my Dart, it likes shifted around 5,400.
Last edited by MoparJoe; 06/04/10 07:12 PM.
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: 440Satellite]
#715772
06/04/10 08:51 PM
06/04/10 08:51 PM
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forphorty
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Quote:
Is it posible to back cut the valves at home using a bench grinder and a made up jig, or best to leave to a shop? If so any idea what it would cost?
Butch
I would think you could if you were careful. The machine shop charged me $40, but that was in addition to the price for the valve job.
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#715774
06/04/10 09:14 PM
06/04/10 09:14 PM
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kenworth_goose
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Quote:
It is recommended not to exceed .495 lift with stock valve train. Make sure the springs you use are compatible, comp 901 should be good. Like scratchn said, the clearance between guide and retainer is crucial, don't use the rotators. Check those 302 castings, they can be prone to cracking in the valve area.
I always used stock valve train with the 557/528 crane, never had any problems at all.
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#715775
06/04/10 09:32 PM
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That wasnt with stock pistons though, was it?
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#715778
06/06/10 09:19 AM
06/06/10 09:19 AM
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Thanks, if thats the case I quess I'll be ok with .491 lift!!!
1972 Duster
318 4 speed
1958 392 Hemi engine
waiting to be built!!!!!
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#715780
06/09/10 08:53 AM
06/09/10 08:53 AM
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patrick
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I'd use the crane cam. I think the XE274 is going to be a little too big, and will be soft on the bottom, and have some surge issues at part throttle cruise. you'll be fine with V/P clearance. cam duration plays a large part in V/P clearance, as the valve is held open further, longer, as the piston is coming up in the bore.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: patrick]
#2671959
06/30/19 03:05 PM
06/30/19 03:05 PM
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thecarfarmer
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I'm not going to try to address the issues of how much low-end torque which cam may or may not have. In my experience, that can vary significantly with the headers, intake, ignition curve, static compression... ...and that's not taking into account other factors, such as vehicle weight, gears, etc. A first-generation a body, with a stick and 4.56 gears would certainly not suffer greatly with extra duration, compared to a fully optioned b body with an automatic... that's another story, isn't it? Anyway, this discussion is really just about what will fit in the engine and not get damaged. For years, my modus operandi was to start at the bottom of the page of the cam catalog, and work my way up until I found something I could assemble in the engine without crashing parts together. The Harley-Davidson guys can generally see what the TDC lift figure is on a lot of grinds in advertised literature. I don't think that's commonly published by automotive cam grinders, however, if you were to contact the manufacturer, I'm sure they could furnish that information Of course, this will also be affected by who are the cam is installed. Change the center line, and you will either add intake clearance and remove exhaust clearance, or vice versa. Depending which way you move the cam. Since the OP was talking about porting some heads, it would be simple enough to assemble with checking springs, put the head over a cylinder with the piston @ TDC, and see how much lift his engine will take @ top dead center. And, it would not be a bad idea to repeat that measurement at 10 degrees before and after. I strongly favor making a measurement like this, as opposed to relying on anecdotal evidence as to what may or may not "fit". Then with data suppliedfrom the manufacturer of the camshaft, it should be pretty easy to know if something is going to be able to assemble safely or not. Just remember, what may work @ a given RPM range may not be kosher at a higher engine speed. I have made some offerings to the gods of speed to learn this lesson...
Last edited by thecarfarmer; 06/30/19 03:17 PM.
Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest.
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489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: mopars4ever]
#2672070
06/30/19 07:39 PM
06/30/19 07:39 PM
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HemiSportFury
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Nine years and 21 days later.........
Wonder why this one resurrected?
'64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60 '57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process '19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite '03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong
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Re: Most valve lift on stock 318?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2675055
07/06/19 11:55 PM
07/06/19 11:55 PM
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thecarfarmer
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Up too late; must've not realized I was comitting thread necro...
Hopefully the OP has already figured it out!
Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest.
******
489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?
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