Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
#701872
05/18/10 07:55 PM
05/18/10 07:55 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
eightlitermopar
OP
top fuel
|
OP
top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
|
I recall reading somewhere that if we convert over to fuel injection, then it is better to have a single plane manifold. IS this true even when it is a "throttle body" type and not direct fuel injection? (Looking at the fast EZ self tuning system) thanks! 
Mopar or no car
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: eightlitermopar]
#701873
05/18/10 08:31 PM
05/18/10 08:31 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
Quote:
I recall reading somewhere that if we convert over to fuel injection, then it is better to have a single plane manifold. IS this true even when it is a "throttle body" type and not direct fuel injection? (Looking at the fast EZ self tuning system)
thanks!
I will get back to you on that later this season....So many choices, so little time.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Alikazam]
#701875
05/18/10 09:16 PM
05/18/10 09:16 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
eightlitermopar
OP
top fuel
|
OP
top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
|
I am looking at the same system as dragula, that is a sweet set up!
I was looking for options on my big block as well as my small block.
So on a big block, does it matter if it is high rise or not? Most of the magazines do their motors with carbs....
M1 for big block? Edelbrock performer or performer RPM possibly?
Victor for a small block?
I am learning a lot about this lately, I just want to have all my facts together before I just start bolting stuff together!
thanks
eight
Mopar or no car
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: eightlitermopar]
#701876
05/19/10 06:05 AM
05/19/10 06:05 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
The dual plane intake on my 360 will work with the TB efi really well I am sure because the intake has been modded to flow a lot better than stock. I cut down the center divider, opened up and radius the runners, and run a 1" open space and everything is blended to match, even the gaskets. It made a substatial improvement with the carb, and I am sure the distribution with the TB will be fine with the 1" spacer.....I just have no time to work on the green truck right now.
The TR in the pic, I am sure will work even better. The guy at FAST that developed the TB has a TR set-up on his mild chebby small block, and its running 10's on pump fuel....
I also have efi on my hemi, and there isn't a better way to go. I have had it on that car for 10 years with 3 different engines and it can be finicky to set-up on a new engine (older FAST & a big cam) but once its close, nothing beats it. It is also pump gas, but pretty radical.
The XFI is a plug and play system. Put it on, enter a few parameters, and drive it. It does most of the tuning for you. Can't wait to try it.
Single plane intakes are generally better for efi than DP intakes unless you make some mods to them. 99% of the intakes out there are designed for wet flow, and do not get the same volume of air to each cylinder when dry flowed. A tunnel ram is the best choice, but cost and other factors generally will lead most away from those. I run one on the Hemi though, and its just awesome. Also, if you choose a TB system, you have to consider the injectors are spraying at a much higher pressure than a carb, and you want as good of a shot at the intake valave as possible. A DP intake will restrict this somewhat.
Beside Edelbrock makes a dedicated FI intake for a BB mopar, buy that and use the EZ efi non TB system.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Jerry]
#701878
05/19/10 07:18 AM
05/19/10 07:18 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
Quote:
ideally, the intake should match the engine. single planes are more common to convert but really the intake you pick should match the engine. if you have a low revving torque engine then convert a dual plane. the longer runner length will help torque. if you have a higher rpm engine with more HP then convert a single plane. when going multiport, the intake should match the engine. when going tbi (which is not as good as MPFI) use the intake that gives the best fuel distribution, and again match the intake to the engine. the new intakes like the air gap have ribbs in the floor to prevent fuel puddling and create turbulence to help with mixing the air and fuel.
Sorry, but that's not true for efi....Velocity or throttle response is created with wet flow based on smaller runner size gets the velocity higher giving an engine more responsive signal to the carb. Efi does not require that, and it will actually hurt performance and be tougher to tune. The bigger the plenum the better, and unlike a carb, an oversized TB won't hurt performance. The stock efi TB on the old mopar barrel truck intakes for the 318 was almost 2000cfm, STOCK.
With port injection, that's really not an issue. Sorry, but the fuel is right at the port. Dry flow is so much more responsive, and the MAP you just set the threshhold on to get the level of response needed. The key with efi is nice unrestricted air flow and even volumes of air for each cylinder. Otherwise, each plug looks different and each cylinder makes a different amount of hp. With efi you try and avoid tuning each cylinder individually.
You would be absolutely shocked at how good my hemi's street manners are with a 0.783" lift cam and a tunnel ram are on pump gas and how good it drives around town and the insane neck snapping torque it puts out right from idle. The wheelie bars are not a decoration, the GF won't ride in it anymore without them!
Last edited by Dragula; 05/19/10 07:20 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Dragula]
#701879
05/19/10 08:15 AM
05/19/10 08:15 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
The bigger the plenum the better, and unlike a carb, an oversized TB won't hurt performance. The stock efi TB on the old mopar barrel truck intakes for the 318 was almost 2000cfm, STOCK.
no offense, but I want some of what you're smoking. the 5.2/5.9 magnum has IIRC twin 50mm throttle blades, BUT the throttle body necks down to about 43mm above them...rough calculations, that works out to about 550 cfm stock. If you bore it out to a straight twin 50, that should be about 730-750 cfm capacity....the only way you're going to get 2000 CFM out of a stock magnum throttle body is if you use 4.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: patrick]
#701880
05/19/10 08:46 AM
05/19/10 08:46 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
POS Dakota
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
|
That sounds about right to me. approximately 750-780 cfm from a 50mm. And a little more from opening it up to a 52mm like one I have laying around here.  I am unsure the barrel intake could even handle that kind of flow itself. It's tuned for low rpm torque. That's why mopar made the 2bbl single plane and then the 4bbl single plane for efi application I'm guessing. 
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: patrick]
#701881
05/19/10 09:08 AM
05/19/10 09:08 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
 Well then shoot me for trusting an old mopar catalogue's flow ratings. I just looked it up on line, and it does list the factory dual 50mm at 635cfm of flow at 25".....While the dual 52mm flows 860cfm. None of which are at the normal 28", but I guess I am way out to lunch on that one. Please post up your aftermarket efi and its specs, if you actually have one. My 484 Hemi TB flows well over 2000cfm and has 83lb/hr injectors set up at 60psi or 96lb/hr....My EZ efi has 4-35lb/hr injectors and I plan on adding 4 more to my little 360. The carb is an 850 annular. Now, back to my point, restriction is bad, and open free flowing air is good. That means a single plane intake is better than dual plane, but neither of which have equal length or volume runners which will get different amounts of air to each cylinder all while the injector is putting the same amount of fuel in each cylinder, but its usually better than most people get a carb tuned. For best results, most tunnel rams will get you the better distribution than a single 4 barrel intake, but not everyone wants one, so if you have the choice, the out of the box M1 should work a lot better than an ootb air gap. You will loose no bottom end with a single plane on efi. Wet flow thinking does not always translate well into efi thinking. Some things work with efi, other things don't work at all.
Last edited by Dragula; 05/19/10 09:10 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Dragula]
#701882
05/19/10 09:51 AM
05/19/10 09:51 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,989
Warren, MI
Jerry
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,989
Warren, MI
|
Quote:
Sorry, but that's not true for efi....Velocity or throttle response is created with wet flow based on smaller runner size gets the velocity higher giving an engine more responsive signal to the carb. Efi does not require that, and it will actually hurt performance and be tougher to tune. The bigger the plenum the better, and unlike a carb, an oversized TB won't hurt performance. The stock efi TB on the old mopar barrel truck intakes for the 318 was almost 2000cfm, STOCK.
With port injection, that's really not an issue. Sorry, but the fuel is right at the port. Dry flow is so much more responsive, and the MAP you just set the threshhold on to get the level of response needed. The key with efi is nice unrestricted air flow and even volumes of air for each cylinder. Otherwise, each plug looks different and each cylinder makes a different amount of hp. With efi you try and avoid tuning each cylinder individually.
You would be absolutely shocked at how good my hemi's street manners are with a 0.783" lift cam and a tunnel ram are on pump gas and how good it drives around town and the insane neck snapping torque it puts out right from idle. The wheelie bars are not a decoration, the GF won't ride in it anymore without them!
Actually it is true for efi, even MPFI. if you look at the beer barrel intake and the TPI intakes for a chevy the runners were long to build torque. the longer the runner is the better cylinder packing you get, hence tuned runners. its called a ram effect from the valve closing. on higher rpm engines the shorter runners are more tuned for higher rpm this is even true for efi engines. like it or not physics still rules the day and it works for both efi (dry flow) and carb or tbi (wet flow).
heck even newer cars have variable intake timing, which adjusts runner length on the intake, through a series of flapper doors. at low rpm the doors are all open and at higher rpm the doors are closed so that you have a short runner.
the fact that you can run a hemi with a tunnel ram and do it successfully is not magic. the hemi had enough volume to use the tunnel ram plenum. and the real benefit from the tunnel ram comes not from the plenum but the longer runner.
so yes match your intake to your engine. if your using tbi get a dual plane that has ribs at the bottom to aid in fuel distribution. if your going to use mpfi then either will work.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Jerry]
#701885
05/19/10 01:00 PM
05/19/10 01:00 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,539
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
Quote:
Actually it is true for efi, even MPFI. if you look at the beer barrel intake and the TPI intakes for a chevy the runners were long to build torque. the longer the runner is the better cylinder packing you get, hence tuned runners. its called a ram effect from the valve closing. on higher rpm engines the shorter runners are more tuned for higher rpm this is even true for efi engines. like it or not physics still rules the day and it works for both efi (dry flow) and carb or tbi (wet flow).
Well, after this discussion, I am done argueing with people who have never put an efi system on an older engine and tuned it....My point again was, HE ASKED WHICH INTAKE, SINGLE OR DUAL PLANE, and I assumed he also wanted to know why. The M1 has different runner volumes and lengths to each cylinder even though its a single plane, but if you have to pick between that and a dual plane, the single wins no butts about it. If the one you pick has the runners sized closest to each other and of about the same length, it will keep the air to each cylinder the closest. As stated, you still need enough volume to feed the engine your building, but unlike a carbed engine where it has to be matched very closely to get good perfomance, you can build an efi set-up that will work on a bigger engine down the road if you choose to do so. Meaning, bigger injectors and TB really won't kill performance off like an oversized carb would. So you could convert a larger volume single plane intake with a larger tb that would feed a future stroker motor and run it on the smaller engine without too much hp loss or drivability loss.
A modern long ram, short ram, variable length b.s. will have runners of the same volume and length for each cylinder as an older TR would, hence each cylinder will be equal in air delivery. They shouldn't even be compared in the same post as converting and old school engine because those are towing cams or daily drivers that have to meet emissions and other requirements, so OEM's optimize torque and horse power while limited to a mild cam. You want to run a daily driver motor fine, but it shouldn't really be compare to 1960's and 70's intake and the older tech. Not to many after market efi manufacturer's make efi systems that would support variable runner lengths, blah, blah.....Nor do we race them.
I believe the only efi intake designed for mopars is by Edelbrock, and its a nice piece, but I can't remember if they had both big and small block or just big block.
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Dragula]
#701886
05/19/10 02:41 PM
05/19/10 02:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
|
I know nothing about fuel injection intake runner length but I replied to share my one and only experience with intake runner length.
The 1st generation 3.5L V6 in 94 LHS's had a valve to change runner length. Not sure what determines when it's open or closed. Changing it from long to short.
Anyways while playing with this car at the track. I tried jamming it open for a run and tried jamming it closed for a run. Fastest and quickest pass was with it left alone.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
|
|
|
Re: Open vs Dual plane intake for FI
[Re: Dragula]
#701887
05/19/10 05:16 PM
05/19/10 05:16 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
Alikazam
super gas
|
super gas
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
|
Quote:
I believe the only efi intake designed for mopars is by Edelbrock, and its a nice piece, but I can't remember if they had both big and small block or just big block.
They make a Super Victor EFI intake for small block and a Victor 440 EFI intake for big block (RB only) as well as a Pro-Flot XT EFI intake for 440/RB applications (designed to use a front mount throttle body on a plenum like late model EFI engines). So 3 pre-made choices, 1 for SB, 2 for RB Big Block. 
|
|
|
|
|
