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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: p d'ro]
#66134
05/30/08 03:12 PM
05/30/08 03:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166
Left Coast
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Quote:
My other beast is a Vette, and on the Corvette Forum the techs all say that the 160° stat is no good, as it does not let the water stay in the radiator long enough to cool down? Back in the day when I didn't know better, I took the thermostat out of my old 318 in the summer time.. No problems... Apparently there is an optimal temp, and too cool will cause poor mileage, screwed, plugs, etc...
Dwell time in the radiator has nothing to do with overheating. The 160 degree thermostat will not exacerbate overheating. If your pulleys are stock ratio then you need a high flow water pump or a better radiator. The fan you have is fine with stock ratio pulleys. Also, make sure your belt is not slipping. -Bob
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: Mopar73340]
#66135
05/30/08 03:17 PM
05/30/08 03:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Since you are using the 7 blade fan, you need to be sure the clutch unit is engaging at idle. I'd be willing to bet the fan does not spin very fast even with the engine reved up. The STOCK replacement type clutch unit will not spin the 7 blade fan fast enough as the fan is to heavy. You need the HEAVY DUTY clutch unit. My Challenger did the same as you describe until I replaced the fan clutch and now it sits at 195* or just slightly above in traffic with a 195* thermostat. Also sounds as though you need a heat insuator or spacer under the carb 
 I beleive it's all in the clutch fan. My 340 started to over heat in traffic and I replaced the clutch fan and it fixed it. It can idle all day long and stay cool with AC.
Recently I have built a 446/6 pak and the cooling system is all stock including the rad and clutch fan with the "216" fan. It'll sit there and idle all day long too without overheating with the AC on! When it comes to cooling a Mopar, STOCK is best. I've proved it to my self and have heard people on here agree with me. Get a 216 fan and a clutch and I bet your problem goes away. Good luck with it.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: BobR]
#66136
05/30/08 03:23 PM
05/30/08 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,936
Richmond, VA
VT_Dart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,936
Richmond, VA
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Don't feel bad, mine does the same thing lol. It'll run right at the thermostat temp without issue as long as I'm moving (even at as slow as 5-10 mph), but when I stop it'll climb. I too am running the factory fixed-blade fan, but I'm in desperate need of a shroud.
Darrah Heath
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: Challenger 1]
#66137
05/30/08 03:26 PM
05/30/08 03:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Re-read his post, he's not using a clutch fan, just a fixed fan. Adding a clutch isn't going to help anything. Try some water wetter while you're at it, I did have a car that was overheating and it did help keep the temps under control better until I got the actual problem dealt with. I don't know how much air a 7 blade fan pulls, but I know my 4-blade(with no shroud) pulls a ton of air and keeps my 440 cool. If your cooling system isn't flowing enough, all the practical airflow through the rad you can get at idle isn't going to solve the problem.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#66138
05/30/08 03:42 PM
05/30/08 03:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
dwbiggs
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
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I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.
Last edited by dwbiggs; 05/30/08 03:43 PM.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#66139
05/30/08 03:47 PM
05/30/08 03:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,492
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,492
Kalispell Mt.
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Funny how many people keep posting about the clutch fan when he said quite a while ago he didn't have one  No reason what he has should not be more than adequit. Just something being over looked in the basics. Not the thermostat, not the fan, probably not the pusher fan but he should ditch it to make sure. As for how it could be in the shroud with out a spacer, my a-bodys don't have spacers and the fan is pretty close to the rad. Mabey 69 chargers had to have one  Even so mabey he has a different one. Not a far fetched idea. As for the rubber seal between the hood and cowl, might help removin it. The one between the hood and core support needs to stay. If you have big holes on a charger core suport for the lighting wires like an A-body does, try and find some rubber grommets to cover the holes, or even duct tape to go along with a roller paint job  I know later b-bodys at least had plastic air dams around the fromt of the engine to keep the hot air moving back, if a 69 don't have them mabey try gettin some from a later car and retrofit them. How much antifreez to water are you useing. Hope I am not sounding  just trying to give some real world helpfull advice. Following these type of things I have never had a car over heating problem I could not fix, also can be very suprising how uncomplicated of a system you need even for some killer motors, most cars have over kill when basics are followed. 
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#66140
05/30/08 03:47 PM
05/30/08 03:47 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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If he is running OK at speed, but heating at idle, it is highly unlikely that he is low on water flow or radiator capacity. Chasing higher water flow does not seem to do much for idle cooling, based on the tests I did. It is all about airflow at idle. That is why they go to the 1.3 pulley ratio for AC compared to the .95 for non-AC, to run the fan faster. Griffin radiator is now recommending the 1.3 ratio on ALL applications. They say that with the newer fuels, more efficient ingitions, carbs, and heads, etc, the engines are harder to keep cool. I have found the same thing in my tests on the TT340, which is very tough to keep cool at idle. Runnning the fan faster (with a clutch so it doesn't hurt power) and getting it in optimum position in the shroud are the biggest improvements you can make to idle cooling.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: VT_Dart]
#66142
05/30/08 03:55 PM
05/30/08 03:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
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Quote:
Don't feel bad, mine does the same thing lol. It'll run right at the thermostat temp without issue as long as I'm moving (even at as slow as 5-10 mph), but when I stop it'll climb. I too am running the factory fixed-blade fan, but I'm in desperate need of a shroud.
that is my EXACT same situation. Don't waste your $ on the shroud, that didn't do a thing for me!!! lol
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
#66143
05/30/08 04:01 PM
05/30/08 04:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Chasing higher water flow does not seem to do much for idle cooling, based on the tests I did. It is all about airflow at idle. That is why they go to the 1.3 pulley ratio for AC compared to the .95 for non-AC, to run the fan faster.
Funny, tests I did showed the exact opposite result. My little 2.5L 87 daytona would heat up at idle. Not excessively, but the temps would rise from the 1/4 mark to the 1/2 mark at idle. Bring the rpms up from idle to around 1500-2000 and temps would drop right back down to 1/4. And that's on a car with an electric fan. Electric fan would only kick in at the 3/4 mark on the temp gauge. So all increasing engine rpms did was increase the engine water pump speed. So even with the extra heat generated at 2000rpm, with the water pump spinning faster, the cooling system was still able to dissapate the heat better than at idle. Water pump flow rate DOES make a difference. Either you need to spin the pump faster or get a pump that flows more at a given rpm, or do both.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: dwbiggs]
#66144
05/30/08 04:04 PM
05/30/08 04:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445
N.Wilkesboro,NC
DusterKrazy
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445
N.Wilkesboro,NC
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Quote:
I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.
Are the eddy style carbs way worse for this??I figured they wouldnt vapor lock as bad because of the aluminum construction 
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#66145
05/30/08 04:08 PM
05/30/08 04:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 165
ohio
B5 GTX
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 165
ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Chasing higher water flow does not seem to do much for idle cooling, based on the tests I did. It is all about airflow at idle. That is why they go to the 1.3 pulley ratio for AC compared to the .95 for non-AC, to run the fan faster.
Funny, tests I did showed the exact opposite result. My little 2.5L 87 daytona would heat up at idle. Not excessively, but the temps would rise from the 1/4 mark to the 1/2 mark at idle. Bring the rpms up from idle to around 1500-2000 and temps would drop right back down to 1/4. And that's on a car with an electric fan. Electric fan would only kick in at the 3/4 mark on the temp gauge. So all increasing engine rpms did was increase the engine water pump speed. So even with the extra heat generated at 2000rpm, with the water pump spinning faster, the cooling system was still able to dissapate the heat better than at idle. Water pump flow rate DOES make a difference. Either you need to spin the pump faster or get a pump that flows more at a given rpm, or do both.
Yes but the coolant in the radiator was cool enough to cool the engine- in this situation the coolant in the rad. is to hot and once cycled through it gets hotter and he does not have enough air flow to cool it enough. Then once moving the speed of the car will force air through.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#66146
05/30/08 04:12 PM
05/30/08 04:12 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.
Are the eddy style carbs way worse for this??I figured they wouldnt vapor lock as bad because of the aluminum construction
The float bowls of the Eddy sit on the intake; the float bowls of a Holley are surrounded by air. YES, the Eddy's are worse about vapor locking.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: dwbiggs]
#66147
05/30/08 04:15 PM
05/30/08 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
Sixpak
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Quote:
I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.
Borrow a holley and a plastic carb spacer. You did not say what sort of fuel pump you are using but if stock mechanical I'd lose that too for an electric fuel pump and carefully re-route the fuel line or insulate it away from the heat, and try that.
You might also consider getting your stock rad recored to one that uses larger tubes, or a 3/4 row setup. Next step is an aluminum rad.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: dwbiggs]
#66148
05/30/08 04:19 PM
05/30/08 04:19 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.
About what I said above. Everyone else is going in the wrong direction. 200 degree water temps shouldn't make a car run rough. Most new cars run that temp all day long.
I'd ask the original poster, are you running stock exhaust manifolds? If so, have you checked to make sure the heat riser valve is working? What kind of insulator are you running under the carb? Have you tried blocking the heat riser passages in the intake manifold? That exhaust heat running through the intake will sure heat up the carb; just what you don't need on a hot day.
Also, are you running an underhood pad? If so, try removing it and see if it does any better. They aren't a whole lot different than throwing a blanket over the engine, IMHO.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#66149
05/30/08 04:28 PM
05/30/08 04:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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on the rough running, here we have (2) selections for "regular", 87 octane and 89 octane "gasahol" that is 10% ethanol & 90% gasoline. Every year as the weather heats up some carb based cars that are on gasahol start to run rough(or die while idling) & some dont.The ones that do have a problem if they switch to 87 octane that cures it. Interesting thread & I am real anxious to hear what the problem(& the solution) ends up being for you.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#66151
05/30/08 04:51 PM
05/30/08 04:51 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Daytona:
I have seen the issue you talk about too, but when I went further into it, I found it had too do with the water flow through the heads and to the gauge sender. In my case, I took the temp of the water entering the radiator with thermometer, because it didn't make sense. What I found was that the water coming out of the engine wasn't getting more than a couple of degrees hotter at idle, even though the gauge showed it heating more than that. The only explanation I could come up with was that at the low water flows at idle, hotter water coming out of the heads was hitting the sender than when the flow was higher, but by the time it got to the thermostat it had all mixed back together again. Looking at the water passages on the manifold in relation to the head passages, it was very possible that this could happen.
The tests I ran on the TT340 were with the 6 blade AC pump (small diameter impeller, with and without anticavitaion plate) and the non AC 8 blade (big diameter impeller) pumps. I left everything else identical and all 3 setups gave exactly the same temp at idle (running at the .95 ratio). Increasing the airflow dropped the temp to the thermostat.
I have no doubt you saw what you say, but it may have been an oddity, or a bad pump. On all the electric fan engines I have seen, they will run a touch cooler as soon as you speed them up (slug of cold water from radiator) but then heat up quickly to higher than an idle if you let them run long.
I have also seen the results you talk about on engines where the heater has been looped out with a piece of hose. On a marginally cooled engine, this can bypass too much coolant away from the radiator until you speed up the engine and increase the flow. Sometimes even putting a slight restriction in the bypass hose will help, if you are close.
You have to be careful when putting more pump on and engine because of the possibility of cavitation at higher rpms, and the fact that it will cost you hp.
A quick edit: The water flow issue can be pretty easy to test. You can see the flow in the radiator, and you can take the temp of the radiator at the outlet. If you are cool going into the engine, but hot out, you may have a low flow issue. If you are hot going into the engine, you have problem getting the heat out of the radiator, probably airflow.
Last edited by booster; 05/30/08 05:04 PM.
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Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT
[Re: Exit1965]
#66153
05/30/08 07:09 PM
05/30/08 07:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,268
Slidell, LA
Ronnman
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,268
Slidell, LA
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A few years ago I mesured some temperatures on my 73 Challenger with a 160 deg F thermostat. All temperature were measured with a thermocouple. Below were the temps:
440 Stock Engine
All temperatures taken at idle, in park, with engine warmed up, 7 blade 216 HD clutch fan, A/C on Max Cool position (except where noted, and in shade.
Temperatures on Engine Cooling
Ambient Air Temp 86 deg F
Condenser Coil leaving Air Temp 108 deg F (air entering radiator)
Radiator Leaving Air Temp 138 deg F
Water Temp Entering Radiator 166 deg F
Water Temp Leaving Radiator 157 deg F
Temperatures on Air Conditioning System
Refrigerant Temp Entering Condenser 149 deg F
Refrigerant Temp Leaving Condenser 116 deg F
Refrigerant Suction Temp Leaving Evap 35 deg F
Air Temperature Leaving Vents 46 deg F Max Cool
Air Temperature Leaving Vents 62 deg F Normal Cool
Just thought I would throw this out here if anyone wanted to see some readings to use for comparision. Also, you might want to check the fan to crank pulley ratio as was mentioned.
Ron
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