I give up, 440's just run HOT

Posted By: captaindodge

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 05:24 PM

Again I ask, Do you idle in gear or neutral? Remember when in gear you loose rpm which slows down the fan and the water pump.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 05:31 PM

200 degrees is a bit warm, but it's hardly in the boiling-over range. Sounds like a vapor lock issue to me. What kind of heat insulator do you have under the carb? Have you tried blocking the heat riser passage in the intake?

Or . . . You could always switch to a Holley; they are more resistant to vapor lock than the Eddy carbs.

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 05:32 PM

Quote:

but it does fit inside a stock shroud right? i measured the stock shroud to have roughly a 20" opening.

Yes. I use a stock 26" shroud with the 18" flex fan. It fits perfectly. Try removing the electric fan first before spending money. What rpm do you idle in gear at? Should be around 600-800 with a mostly stock engine, correct.

Posted By: 79powerwagon

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 05:35 PM

Since nobody else will ask, I will-

What gauge are you relying on?

My 30 over 440, Summit aluminum rad, cheap electric fan will idle in gear for an hour in +100� temps, in the sun, on pavement, and never get above 200�...

Attached picture 4461875-PA090004.JPG

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 05:50 PM

You need to look where the hot air goes after it comes out the back of the shroud. Some cars it has a tendancy to just cycle back under the front of the car and go back through the radiator. Hot air rises and it will find the easiest way to go up. Look for big holes through the core support. Also look for an air dam under the core support to keep air from "recycleing".

Mabey an easier way to look at it would be too flip the car upside down (in your mind not reality) and pour water in the engine compartment and where it the majority going to go when it starts to get full, would it overflow to the area in front of the radiator?

A easy way to verify this might be the problem is open the hood and see if it still gets hot.

Still wondering what ratio AF to H20.

What pullys are you useing?

Your running problem will still be there after you get the engine to stay at 180-190 unless you keep the fuel from vaporizing where ever it is doing it.

Pusher fans are about worthless.

Also not all recored radiators are the same quality. The savey savoy project had an isue with the radiator cores not being right and causing over heating. Mabey someone can post a linki with pics for you to look at.

How much space is ther from the tip of the blade to the edge of the shroud?

Tons of stuff to try, don't give up! No reason for it to ever heat up if you don't want it to.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 06:02 PM

A flex fan will do nothing for you. You're not going to get any more airflow than what you're getting with that fixed 7-blade stock unit. Flex fans just put less drag on the engine when rpms increase.

My 440 is hooked up to an aftermarket aluminum rad and it never overheats. And it's an untouched mid 70's 440 with who knows how much crap built up in the block's cooling passages over the years, and it never even hints at wanting to overheat.

Remember, when the rpms go down, the water pump and fan are spun slower. Since you have that 7-blade unit, I suspect there are no more airflow gains to be had there. What water pump did you use when you put the motor together? Milodon makes a high-volume water pump, have you given that a shot? How about your t-stat? Some t-stats are just designed to flow much better than others.

Posted By: ademon

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 06:23 PM

With daytonaturbo, you probably have enough air flow with your setup, try a hi flow t-stat and a hi flow water pump.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 06:24 PM

I have found the fans to move the air the best when they are further out of the shroud than half way in. I run mine at only .375 inch in the shroud with all the rest out. By moving from half way in to the further out, I improved my idle temp by 20 degrees.

If that doesn't work, you may want to switch to an AC (small impeller) pump and AC pulleys (1.3 ratio). That will almost certainly cure the problem.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 06:28 PM

thanks for all the pointers guys.

funny how i used to post advice about overheating issues, but now i have the problem too!!!

I think my next step is to remove the pusher electric fan, add the rubber seal from the hood to rad support, and try that out. Then i'm going to try a 160 stat. After that i'm going to smash the car!!!!!.

Everything is by the book, the vapor lock issus is because it's getting too hot. i do have the eddy insulating gasket which does keep the carb cool, and totally solved my no start issue from sitting for a few days and my hot start issues. I'm also thinking about wraping the fuel lines in tin-foil just to try. Underhood temps are very high when this happens, even though the water temps are about 195-200, it's really not that high, but everything under the hood is HOT to the touch. I'm going to try isolating the rad support as much as i can to avoid recycling.

if that does'nt work, flush and fill the rad, 160 stat, water wetter, and then last step is the mildon pump/stat.....

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 07:18 PM

My other beast is a Vette, and on the Corvette Forum the techs all say that the 160� stat is no good, as it does not let the water stay in the radiator long enough to cool down? Back in the day when I didn't know better, I took the thermostat out of my old 318 in the summer time.. No problems... Apparently there is an optimal temp, and too cool will cause poor mileage, screwed, plugs, etc...

Posted By: B5 GTX

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 07:27 PM

I've had the same type issues, fine out on the road, get in traffic and watch the guage climb. One thing that I changed was the fan, I had a fixed 7 blade fan and I switched to the mopar 5 blade viscus fan deal-the first thing I noticed as how much more air the new fan pushed at idle, you could feel it standing next to the car. So far I can't say that it has fixed it 100% because I changed it out late last season, but the few hot days I drove it the problem had gone away. I think the difference between the two fans is the pitch of the blade- the fixed was 1.75" and the other was 2.25"(I think, it may have been 2) which means with each revolution of the fan the fan would pull almost an extra 1/2 inch of air through.
Good luck and dont smash your car!
Scott

Posted By: Mopar73340

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:03 PM

Since you are using the 7 blade fan, you need to be sure the clutch unit is engaging at idle. I'd be willing to bet the fan does not spin very fast even with the engine reved up. The STOCK replacement type clutch unit will not spin the 7 blade fan fast enough as the fan is to heavy. You need the HEAVY DUTY clutch unit. My Challenger did the same as you describe until I replaced the fan clutch and now it sits at 195* or just slightly above in traffic with a 195* thermostat. Also sounds as though you need a heat insuator or spacer under the carb

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:12 PM

Quote:

Since you are using the 7 blade fan, you need to be sure the clutch unit is engaging at idle. I'd be willing to bet the fan does not spin very fast even with the engine reved up. The STOCK replacement type clutch unit will not spin the 7 blade fan fast enough as the fan is to heavy. You need the HEAVY DUTY clutch unit. My Challenger did the same as you describe until I replaced the fan clutch and now it sits at 195* or just slightly above in traffic with a 195* thermostat. Also saounds as though you need a heat insuator or spacer under the carb

he doesn't have the clutch fan , its the fixed fan and i'm trying to figure out how its half in , half out without a spacer in between the fan and the pulley ???

do you have the lower shroud that gets installed between the bumper brackets ?

is the system under full pressure ???

Posted By: BobR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:12 PM

Quote:

My other beast is a Vette, and on the Corvette Forum the techs all say that the 160� stat is no good, as it does not let the water stay in the radiator long enough to cool down? Back in the day when I didn't know better, I took the thermostat out of my old 318 in the summer time.. No problems... Apparently there is an optimal temp, and too cool will cause poor mileage, screwed, plugs, etc...

Dwell time in the radiator has nothing to do with overheating. The 160 degree thermostat will not exacerbate overheating. If your pulleys are stock ratio then you need a high flow water pump or a better radiator. The fan you have is fine with stock ratio pulleys. Also, make sure your belt is not slipping. -Bob

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:17 PM

Quote:

Since you are using the 7 blade fan, you need to be sure the clutch unit is engaging at idle. I'd be willing to bet the fan does not spin very fast even with the engine reved up. The STOCK replacement type clutch unit will not spin the 7 blade fan fast enough as the fan is to heavy. You need the HEAVY DUTY clutch unit. My Challenger did the same as you describe until I replaced the fan clutch and now it sits at 195* or just slightly above in traffic with a 195* thermostat. Also sounds as though you need a heat insuator or spacer under the carb

I beleive it's all in the clutch fan. My 340 started to over heat in traffic and I replaced the clutch fan and it fixed it. It can idle all day long and stay cool with AC.
Recently I have built a 446/6 pak and the cooling system is all stock including the rad and clutch fan with the "216" fan. It'll sit there and idle all day long too without overheating with the AC on! When it comes to cooling a Mopar, STOCK is best. I've proved it to my self and have heard people on here agree with me. Get a 216 fan and a clutch and I bet your problem goes away. Good luck with it.

Posted By: VT_Dart

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:23 PM

Don't feel bad, mine does the same thing lol. It'll run right at the thermostat temp without issue as long as I'm moving (even at as slow as 5-10 mph), but when I stop it'll climb. I too am running the factory fixed-blade fan, but I'm in desperate need of a shroud.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:26 PM

Re-read his post, he's not using a clutch fan, just a fixed fan. Adding a clutch isn't going to help anything. Try some water wetter while you're at it, I did have a car that was overheating and it did help keep the temps under control better until I got the actual problem dealt with.

I don't know how much air a 7 blade fan pulls, but I know my 4-blade(with no shroud) pulls a ton of air and keeps my 440 cool. If your cooling system isn't flowing enough, all the practical airflow through the rad you can get at idle isn't going to solve the problem.

Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:42 PM

I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:47 PM

Funny how many people keep posting about the clutch fan when he said quite a while ago he didn't have one

No reason what he has should not be more than adequit. Just something being over looked in the basics. Not the thermostat, not the fan, probably not the pusher fan but he should ditch it to make sure. As for how it could be in the shroud with out a spacer, my a-bodys don't have spacers and the fan is pretty close to the rad. Mabey 69 chargers had to have one

Even so mabey he has a different one. Not a far fetched idea.

As for the rubber seal between the hood and cowl, might help removin it. The one between the hood and core support needs to stay. If you have big holes on a charger core suport for the lighting wires like an A-body does, try and find some rubber grommets to cover the holes, or even duct tape to go along with a roller paint job

I know later b-bodys at least had plastic air dams around the fromt of the engine to keep the hot air moving back, if a 69 don't have them mabey try gettin some from a later car and retrofit them.

How much antifreez to water are you useing.

Hope I am not sounding

just trying to give some real world helpfull advice.

Following these type of things I have never had a car over heating problem I could not fix, also can be very suprising how uncomplicated of a system you need even for some killer motors, most cars have over kill when basics are followed.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:47 PM

If he is running OK at speed, but heating at idle, it is highly unlikely that he is low on water flow or radiator capacity. Chasing higher water flow does not seem to do much for idle cooling, based on the tests I did. It is all about airflow at idle. That is why they go to the 1.3 pulley ratio for AC compared to the .95 for non-AC, to run the fan faster. Griffin radiator is now recommending the 1.3 ratio on ALL applications. They say that with the newer fuels, more efficient ingitions, carbs, and heads, etc, the engines are harder to keep cool. I have found the same thing in my tests on the TT340, which is very tough to keep cool at idle. Runnning the fan faster (with a clutch so it doesn't hurt power) and getting it in optimum position in the shroud are the biggest improvements you can make to idle cooling.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:53 PM

I have a stock fan and shroud on my 440 67 R/T. If I get teh Mopar 5 blade viscous fan kit, can I keep teh same shroud. Are these fans the same size????

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 08:55 PM

Quote:

Don't feel bad, mine does the same thing lol. It'll run right at the thermostat temp without issue as long as I'm moving (even at as slow as 5-10 mph), but when I stop it'll climb. I too am running the factory fixed-blade fan, but I'm in desperate need of a shroud.

that is my EXACT same situation. Don't waste your $ on the shroud, that didn't do a thing for me!!! lol

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:01 PM

Quote:

Chasing higher water flow does not seem to do much for idle cooling, based on the tests I did. It is all about airflow at idle. That is why they go to the 1.3 pulley ratio for AC compared to the .95 for non-AC, to run the fan faster.

Funny, tests I did showed the exact opposite result. My little 2.5L 87 daytona would heat up at idle. Not excessively, but the temps would rise from the 1/4 mark to the 1/2 mark at idle. Bring the rpms up from idle to around 1500-2000 and temps would drop right back down to 1/4. And that's on a car with an electric fan. Electric fan would only kick in at the 3/4 mark on the temp gauge. So all increasing engine rpms did was increase the engine water pump speed. So even with the extra heat generated at 2000rpm, with the water pump spinning faster, the cooling system was still able to dissapate the heat better than at idle. Water pump flow rate DOES make a difference. Either you need to spin the pump faster or get a pump that flows more at a given rpm, or do both.

Posted By: DusterKrazy

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:04 PM

Quote:

I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.

Are the eddy style carbs way worse for this??I figured they wouldnt vapor lock as bad because of the aluminum construction

Posted By: Sixpak

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:15 PM

Quote:

I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.

Borrow a holley and a plastic carb spacer. You did not say what sort of fuel pump you are using but if stock mechanical I'd lose that too for an electric fuel pump and carefully re-route the fuel line or insulate it away from the heat, and try that.
You might also consider getting your stock rad recored to one that uses larger tubes, or a 3/4 row setup. Next step is an aluminum rad.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:19 PM

Quote:

I agree...200 won't hurt anything...its the running rough that is a puzzle...I wouldn't think 200 deg would cause the car to run rough. I have been at 200 idling through a parade inthe middle of July but it never ran rough. I'd get rid of that AFB first and try a Holley. I had an Eddy AFB on mine and it had hot start issues.

About what I said above. Everyone else is going in the wrong direction. 200 degree water temps shouldn't make a car run rough. Most new cars run that temp all day long.

I'd ask the original poster, are you running stock exhaust manifolds? If so, have you checked to make sure the heat riser valve is working? What kind of insulator are you running under the carb? Have you tried blocking the heat riser passages in the intake manifold? That exhaust heat running through the intake will sure heat up the carb; just what you don't need on a hot day.

Also, are you running an underhood pad? If so, try removing it and see if it does any better. They aren't a whole lot different than throwing a blanket over the engine, IMHO.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:28 PM

on the rough running, here we have (2) selections for "regular", 87 octane and 89 octane "gasahol" that is 10% ethanol & 90% gasoline. Every year as the weather heats up some carb based cars that are on gasahol start to run rough(or die while idling) & some dont.The ones that do have a problem if they switch to 87 octane that cures it. Interesting thread & I am real anxious to hear what the problem(& the solution) ends up being for you.

Posted By: Exit1965

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:48 PM

For the guys who mentioned the fan/shroud placement issue, can you feel more suction in front of the radiator with the correct placement? One guy mentioned -20 degree difference, did the other poster have a similar result? I have a homemade shroud on mine, and the fans all the way inside it. Looks like taking the spacer off should put it about 1/2" inside the shroud (the fan is 1 1/2" wide).

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 09:51 PM

Daytona:

I have seen the issue you talk about too, but when I went further into it, I found it had too do with the water flow through the heads and to the gauge sender. In my case, I took the temp of the water entering the radiator with thermometer, because it didn't make sense. What I found was that the water coming out of the engine wasn't getting more than a couple of degrees hotter at idle, even though the gauge showed it heating more than that. The only explanation I could come up with was that at the low water flows at idle, hotter water coming out of the heads was hitting the sender than when the flow was higher, but by the time it got to the thermostat it had all mixed back together again. Looking at the water passages on the manifold in relation to the head passages, it was very possible that this could happen.

The tests I ran on the TT340 were with the 6 blade AC pump (small diameter impeller, with and without anticavitaion plate) and the non AC 8 blade (big diameter impeller) pumps. I left everything else identical and all 3 setups gave exactly the same temp at idle (running at the .95 ratio). Increasing the airflow dropped the temp to the thermostat.

I have no doubt you saw what you say, but it may have been an oddity, or a bad pump. On all the electric fan engines I have seen, they will run a touch cooler as soon as you speed them up (slug of cold water from radiator) but then heat up quickly to higher than an idle if you let them run long.

I have also seen the results you talk about on engines where the heater has been looped out with a piece of hose. On a marginally cooled engine, this can bypass too much coolant away from the radiator until you speed up the engine and increase the flow. Sometimes even putting a slight restriction in the bypass hose will help, if you are close.

You have to be careful when putting more pump on and engine because of the possibility of cavitation at higher rpms, and the fact that it will cost you hp.

A quick edit: The water flow issue can be pretty easy to test. You can see the flow in the radiator, and you can take the temp of the radiator at the outlet. If you are cool going into the engine, but hot out, you may have a low flow issue. If you are hot going into the engine, you have problem getting the heat out of the radiator, probably airflow.

Posted By: Exit1965

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/30/08 11:25 PM

Here is an interesting article where they outline a series of changes to the cooling system, and describe results.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/upgrading_cooling_system/index.html

Posted By: Ronnman

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 12:09 AM

A few years ago I mesured some temperatures on my 73 Challenger with a 160 deg F thermostat. All temperature were measured with a thermocouple. Below were the temps:

440 Stock Engine
All temperatures taken at idle, in park, with engine warmed up, 7 blade 216 HD clutch fan, A/C on Max Cool position (except where noted, and in shade.

Temperatures on Engine Cooling

Ambient Air Temp 86 deg F
Condenser Coil leaving Air Temp 108 deg F (air entering radiator)
Radiator Leaving Air Temp 138 deg F
Water Temp Entering Radiator 166 deg F
Water Temp Leaving Radiator 157 deg F

Temperatures on Air Conditioning System

Refrigerant Temp Entering Condenser 149 deg F
Refrigerant Temp Leaving Condenser 116 deg F
Refrigerant Suction Temp Leaving Evap 35 deg F
Air Temperature Leaving Vents 46 deg F Max Cool
Air Temperature Leaving Vents 62 deg F Normal Cool

Just thought I would throw this out here if anyone wanted to see some readings to use for comparision. Also, you might want to check the fan to crank pulley ratio as was mentioned.
Ron

Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 12:22 AM

Every bigblock mopar i,ve ever owned always ran a little hot in traffic no matter what i tried with the cooling system ,timing , jetting etc.

They would never overheat or boil over but would start to run not as well as they did at cooler temps .
But once i switched over to an electric fuel pump with a return line they actually ran better on the hot side .
Nowadays i rarely even look at the temp gauge .

Posted By: kenworth_goose

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 01:00 AM

I've ran into the same exact problem a few different times and has always been cured the same way. A 160 degree thermostat, and the installation of an aluminum radiator!! Nothing else has ever worked for me. When an engine builds a bunch of power, the cooling system is the first to show it.

Posted By: torkrules

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 01:06 AM

Hey Martin:

I bought a 6 blade 16" solid fan from Flexi-lite and ran it during the hot day on Thanksgiving last year. I purposely got stuck in stop and go traffic and it never got over 185. I took it off to try the same size fan with a clutch. It too worked good.

I'm running a 22" aluminum reproduction Mancini rad. Are you using a 26" rad?

I tried to run an electric fan on my old Charger and I had problems when idling (couldn't pull enough air). It too had an aluminum rad (Be Cool cross flow). It cooled better with a clutch fan.

Timing can be significant, even a few degrees could make a big difference. Try running 38 degrees total timing (without the vacuum advance). Running lean will also cause it to heat up. Try backing out the idle mixture screws a 1/4 turn each.

Posted By: IronWolf

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 02:23 AM

Think your block passages are pristine ? If you haven't had it hot tanked yet, knock out one of the core plugs and tell us what horrors you see !!

Posted By: basketcase

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 03:37 AM

Quote:

That extra fan is blocking more than it is helping.

excatly. my road runner has a 22" rad, no shroud. had an electric fan on it when I bought it. ran hot in town. pulled the electric off, runs fine now.
I had a '68 Charger, 440 4 speed, 3.23s, 26" rad no shroud. ran 180 or lower.

Attached picture 4463091-P1010005.jpg

Posted By: BobR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 03:59 AM

Quote:

I've ran into the same exact problem a few different times and has always been cured the same way. A 160 degree thermostat, and the installation of an aluminum radiator!! Nothing else has ever worked for me. When an engine builds a bunch of power, the cooling system is the first to show it.

Exactly but there will be posts contradicting this. On my 500 HP Challenger I have a 26" Griffin aluminum radiator, a 160 degree high flow t/stat, a high flow water pump, a 7 blade aluminum fan, a h/d fan clutch and a stock shroud. I also use Evans NPG+ coolant. I can drive this car through death valley and it won't see 200 degrees on the gauge. -Bob

Posted By: Exit1965

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 04:07 AM

What brand of hi flow tstat are you using?

FWIW I found an interesting experiment about fan blade / shroud placement. This guy found the lowest temp, in his cars case, was with the fan fully inside the shroud compared to partially or wholly out.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forum...roud+experiment

I'm having a cooling issue too (~215 at idle), I am going to start with the easy stuff (timing, possibly tstat If I can get a hi flow one), water wetter, then maybe go to a more agressive fan.

Posted By: BobR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 04:14 AM

Quote:

What brand of hi flow tstat are you using?

FWIW I found an interesting experiment about fan blade / shroud placement. This guy found the lowest temp, in his cars case, was with the fan fully inside the shroud compared to partially or wholly out.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forum...roud+experiment

I'm having a cooling issue too (~215 at idle), I am going to start with the easy stuff (timing, possibly tstat If I can get a hi flow one), water wetter, then maybe go to a more agressive fan.

Milodon part number 16405 available at Summit racing. -Bob

Posted By: ToddP

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 04:35 AM

Others have mentioned this, First I would advance idle timing, at least to 20 deg. initial. Engine will run cooler at idle by doing this.

second I would use a non clutch fan.

Third get rid of pusher fan.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 01:05 PM

Quote:

Others have mentioned this, First I would advance idle timing, at least to 20 deg. initial. Engine will run cooler at idle by doing this.

second I would use a non clutch fan.

Third get rid of pusher fan.

He has posted 3 times that he does not have a clutch fan!

Posted By: Sinitro

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 05:37 PM

Getting the cooling system to work rite is not rocket science..
An there are no qwikee short cuts..

The original OE Mopar systems were pretty good so thats where you start..
1. Chuck the electric fans
2. Pull the factory radiator, flush it kleen and here increasing the core in size can do wonders go to a 3 or 4 core
3. Flush the block/heads
4. Use the factory shroud but make sure the fan is about 1" back from the radiator, we like to use a clutch fan
5. Refill the system with 50/50 mix
6. Make sure to use a quality thermostadt, 180 degrees is fine

We have been building/racing big block Mopars for almost 40 years and the majority of cooling problems are created by parts mismatch and/or faulty installs. Take it step-by-step and you will be surprised on how well the OE cooling system can work..
Here in So Cal it can easily hit 102-105 degrees and our cars typically run 200-205 degrees in slow stop/go traffic. If the outside temperature is more normal like 75-85 degrees they typically run 180-190 degrees.

We just fixed a friend's 340 Dart GS was running about 210-220 degrees, some wizbang said mount this dual electric fan system..

Current jumped 50 amps on the charging system and no improvement for cooling..

Threw out the dual fans into the dumpster added a shroud and it dropped 15 degrees.

Just my

Posted By: ngpSatellite

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 06:37 PM

Posted By: pro451bee

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 05/31/08 07:48 PM

I found the Milodon and Mr Gasket T stats work much better than cheap parts store ones , and a 18 inch HD thermal fan cured my idle heat-up problem .

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/02/08 11:04 PM

well here's an update. I installed the rubber seal between the hood and rad support. I installed a 180* deg Mr Gasket high-flow stat. also removed the pusher electric fan. Now everything is stock except the high flow stat. WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE. The car used to drive (correction to my old post now that i payed attention to the gauge) 190 when crusin, and creeped from there at a stop, probably reaching 200 then vapor lock symptoms were setting in. Now it cruises at 175-180; it cycles between there, you can see the stat open and close, when it opens it drops instantly to 175, then slowly goes to 180. Last night i put the parking brake on, left it idling in gear for 15 mins, after a 1hr drive, and it stayed rock solid at 180. Plus i can hardly believe how much less engine compartment heat there is now. Also one thing that i thought was stupid when i was doing, but did anyways was wrap the fuel line in tinfoil. to my total amazement the fuel line is cold now, where before it was almost impossible to touch > that one blew me away. Anyways, i still have the milodon high flow pump on order, i'll put that in as well and i'm positive my running hot issues are solved now. thanks for all the help guys, i was really stumped on this one. i could not believe regular old tin foil was so effective at reflecting heat as it does. The part of the fuel line that i didn't wrap with foil was hot, and the part i did was totally cold!!!! i have a new item to add to my tool box as well as the following "must have items": duct tape, electrical tape, zip ties, JB weld, hammer, automotive GOOP, TIN FOIL!!!! i'm convinced that with these items anything can be fixed!!!

Posted By: ahy

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/02/08 11:06 PM

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/03/08 01:34 AM

OK GUYS, TOTALLY STRIKE MY PREVIOUS POST. THE DAMM THING STILL RUNS HOT.

Who wants to buy a nice charger r/t???

I just don't get it, i went out for a drive, everything was fine, 175-180, then i hit traffic, there she went, 185, 190, 195, 200....then it ran like crap.

I'm totally lost for just about the first time, i just can't see what the problem is, as long as i'm moving, everything is perfect.

HELP....

Posted By: 340Scamp

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/03/08 01:47 AM

Check your timing. This happened to my brother and the timing fixed it.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/03/08 02:10 AM

Does it cool down if you put it in neutral and rev the engine to 1000 to 1200 rpm?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/03/08 02:19 AM

what kinda stat are you running? el cheapo wallmart brand or a performance stat?
mabey try replacing the stat with a 2" flatwasher with a 1/2" hole in the center (restriction).
then see what happens.

Posted By: 440trk

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/03/08 05:48 AM

Did I miss it, or have you still not posted the Anti-freeze to water mixture? As mentioned, too much anti-freeze will make it run hotter..... If your anti-freeze is more than a 50/50 mix, it may very well be part of the problem.

While I realize you don't have a clutch fan now.... adding the MP clutch fan setup may very well help you out. I've had great success in the past using 440 A/C clutch fan setups on non a/c vehicles. They move LOTS more air and work great. That along with a good fan shroud has fixed any BB overheating problems due to air movement. Now if you're running WAY lean at idle....that could be another issue.

Where is your vacuum advance hooked to? Ported or manifold vacuum?

Posted By: Exit1965

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 12:50 AM

How does one tell between (or get) an AC fan clutch setup as opposed to non AC fan clutch? I'm in a similar boat as 69charger.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 02:17 AM

timing is 15 initial, 20 deg mech adv, total 35 plus vac adv 14 (ported port)

yes it cools down when you revv it in N,

Mr Gasket highflow stat.

50/50 mix.

So i've been reading posts i searched for on dodge charger board while moparts was down, and found this one: web page

at the end on page 2, he says it was the fuel pump in the end. Now hear me out, last night my car actually died on me at about 190, i started it back up held the rpms at 2000 for a min and drove off, after several attempts of this i was off, and drove 20 mi home with no problems (but always moving, temps were at 180 moving, and creeping up at lights, but they were all short), but i have been noticing lately it's not running that good idle when hot as it used to. I don't know why it starts running like crap when it's hot, but i'm putting 2 and 2 together here and thinking that the fuel pump is getting hot, and failing, at idle causing a lean condition which = HEAT, and ultimately my problem. I'm sure my combo, parts used are good in the cooling system, and this just doesn't make cents. Whatcha think? ummm?

I don't want to throw parts at this like alum rad, fan, i should be able to cool with totally stock stuff, which by the way is all NEW, new rad, belts, water pump, hoses, stat, rad cap, ect....i'm done with the cooling system, it's all new stock stuff it should be enough to cool my stock motor no?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 03:49 AM

Quote:

yes it cools down when you revv it in N,

The fact that it cools down when you rev it makes testing for the problem quite a bit easier.

The mixture and timing issues you are looking at are a possibility, but other things are much more likely.

To zero in on the problem:

Take the temp of the radiator at the inlet and at the outlet (buy/borrow an infrared gun). You should have somewhere in the 25 to 30 degree temp drop from inlet to outlet.

If you have less than 20 degrees temp drop, you are probably looking at low airflow. Not enough air to cool the water going through the radiator.

If you have more than 30 degrees temp drop, you are probably looking at low water flow. Not enough water to carry the heat out of the engine.

If you have the right temp drop, and the engine still heats up, then you are looking at being low on both water and airflow, or perhaps the mixture and timing issues.

Also try running it with the hood open. If it stays cool with the hood open, you have another thing that says airflow shortage.

If you have an airflow issue try the following tests.

With engine idling and the hood closed, reach in through the grill area and feel for airflow at the radiator. All the airflow should be INTO the radiator. Many times you will feel air coming back out of the radiator, especially at the corners. All this does is recycle already hot air and makes a huge difference in cooling. If you find air coming back out, it is very likely it is because the fan is too far into the shrould. Especially on tapered shrouds, the air will get pushed back out. Remember that a very large part of the air comes out the ends of the blades and if it hits the taper of the shroud it will be directed back towards the radiator. As I said earlier, having only .375 of an inch of fan in the shroud worked the best for me. Also check to see if hot air is finding its way back to the front of the radiator out around any openings by the radiator, or bouncing off something and coming back along the ground.

If the fan in the shroud doesn't do it, and you are still low on flow, try another fan. When I tested them, the 7 and 5 blade (on clutches) fans moved about the same amount of air, and stalled the clutch at the same rpm. I like the 5 because it is quieter, lighter and easier to install.

I that still doesn't do it, you will need to look at spinning it faster with different pulleys.

If the testing shows a water flow issue, that is easy to fix with a bigger pump and high flow thermostat, or by speeding up the pump with pulley changes.

Be methodical and collect your data carefully, and I think you will be able to track it down.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 09:45 AM

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but have you checked your vacuum advance??? If they are not working properly, engines run hotter, lose some performance, and get even worse mileage!

One reason I like GM luxury cars of that era, like a 1971 Caddy I had for a long time...Idiot lights!

Hot light, then if you really push it, there was the stop engine light!
Had no idea how hot it was running, Hot light only came on once or twice on 98 degree days after stopping for gas.
After having a 1973 New Yorker, it was nice to not forever watch and worry over the Temp gauge, with the A/C on! Something to be said for being an idiot.

Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 01:07 PM

Quote:

timing is 15 initial, 20 deg mech adv, total 35 plus vac adv 14 (ported port)

yes it cools down when you revv it in N,

Mr Gasket highflow stat.

50/50 mix.

So i've been reading posts i searched for on dodge charger board while moparts was down, and found this one: web page

at the end on page 2, he says it was the fuel pump in the end. Now hear me out, last night my car actually died on me at about 190, i started it back up held the rpms at 2000 for a min and drove off, after several attempts of this i was off, and drove 20 mi home with no problems (but always moving, temps were at 180 moving, and creeping up at lights, but they were all short), but i have been noticing lately it's not running that good idle when hot as it used to. I don't know why it starts running like crap when it's hot, but i'm putting 2 and 2 together here and thinking that the fuel pump is getting hot, and failing, at idle causing a lean condition which = HEAT, and ultimately my problem. I'm sure my combo, parts used are good in the cooling system, and this just doesn't make cents. Whatcha think? ummm?

I don't want to throw parts at this like alum rad, fan, i should be able to cool with totally stock stuff, which by the way is all NEW, new rad, belts, water pump, hoses, stat, rad cap, ect....i'm done with the cooling system, it's all new stock stuff it should be enough to cool my stock motor no?

I think you're on to something. I've been watching this thread and it contains lots of good cooling system tips.However I don't feel 200 is too hot. My car will creep up to 200-210 in traffic on a hot day,but it never affects how it runs. I would look long and hard at fuel and fuel delivery,from the tank to the carb. Maybe borrow a different carb to try?
If your car creeps up to 220-230 or higher,forget everything I said and go back to your cooling system. But I wouldn't worry about 200 and it should't cause running issues!

Good luck

Posted By: 71383beep

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/04/08 02:19 PM

I would have to agree. 200 is not hot. Both my 383 bee runs and idles here as well as my good friends 318 satellite. The factory built alot of these cars with 195 t stats (including mine) anyways so i can't believe that 5 extra degrees qualifies as hot.

I'm not sying that your not expereincing problems. I just think that something fuel or ignition specific is happening. I have heard of ignition wires doing wiered things when warmed up...the wire has a break that when it heats up and expands the contacts pull apart. when it cools down it works fine.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 02:59 PM

here's an update, i got the milodon high flow pump, new carter fuel pump, new heater hoses (going to bring them up to the fender as they are too close to the exhaust manifolds), coolant, going to clean/inspect carb for plugged jet, and i'm putting the electric fan back on since that wasn't the problem, plus at the last mopar show when i had no heat issues i was just about the only car that could idle for 1hr without overheating with the electric fan on!!!! now i can't just drive!!!! what a turn of events.

So hopefully after changing the fuel pump, water pump, flush/fill coolant, clean carb, putting electric fan back on, it better be fixed or else... Right now i don't care what fixes is i just want it to run cool, i had it running cool once.....

I'm really thinking the fuel pump is the issues, that would explain my lean surging at cruise, running hot at idle, and the running rough/dieing at idle.....that's the only logical explanation for all my symptoms.....for now.....

Posted By: Old_Moparz

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 03:39 PM

Not sure if you looked into it, but even new parts can be defective. You might have something brand new, but if the problem still exists, you automatically assume it's another cause. I remember having electrical issues on my '69 Charger almost 30 years ago & the same thing happened. I put in several new parts for whatever it was back then, but the issue was still there. I finally gave up & brought it to a shop where a friend worked & they diagnosed the problem being one of the new items I installed. I spent hours & lots of money chasing a problem I had & never thought to make sure I had working parts to begin with.

I saw a lot of good info suggested on this thread, but sometimes the simplest things are always overlooked.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 03:42 PM

Quote:

Not sure if you looked into it, but even new parts can be defective. You might have something brand new, but if the problem still exists, you automatically assume it's another cause. I remember having electrical issues on my '69 Charger almost 30 years ago & the same thing happened. I put in several new parts for whatever it was back then, but the issue was still there. I finally gave up & brought it to a shop where a friend worked & they diagnosed the problem being one of the new items I installed. I spent hours & lots of money chasing a problem I had & never thought to make sure I had working parts to begin with.

I saw a lot of good info suggested on this thread, but sometimes the simplest things are always overlooked.

well all my symptoms could be explained by the fuel pump, it's the only thing i haven't changed...

Posted By: B5 Bee

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 04:30 PM

The only Mopar cooling problems I've had, once all systems were clean and working properly, were cars that had the OEM radiator changed with an inferior replacement or recored with a cheap core.

Most of the replacement cores and radiators have a low fin count and fewer tubes than the OEM units. Pay extra for the good stuff if you want a cool running motor. A core with 1 or 2 extra rows may be needed if the motor is modified, otherwise the OEM count should work on near stock motors. BTW, I've never seen a 3 or 4 core radiator, radiators have 1 core with 2, 3 or 4 rows.

My '70 440-6 Bee runs cool with the OEM 22" radiator in the summer here in FL, were as my 225 slant six '68 Signet with a 19" replacement tends to heat up at highway speeds.

How good were the OEM units when new? Even the 440-6 C bodies came with a 22" radiator!

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 04:48 PM

Quote:

The only Mopar cooling problems I've had, once all systems were clean and working properly, were cars that had the OEM radiator changed with an inferior replacement or recored with a cheap core.

Most of the replacement cores and radiators have a low fin count and fewer tubes than the OEM units. Pay extra for the good stuff if you want a cool running motor. A core with 1 or 2 extra rows may be needed if the motor is modified, otherwise the OEM count should work on near stock motors. BTW, I've never seen a 3 or 4 core radiator, radiators have 1 core with 2, 3 or 4 rows.

My '70 440-6 Bee runs cool with the OEM 22" radiator in the summer here in FL, were as my 225 slant six '68 Signet with a 19" replacement tends to heat up at highway speeds.

How good were the OEM units when new? Even the 440-6 C bodies came with a 22" radiator!

yes but this same rad did cool the car, now all of a sudden running hot, surge at cruise, heating at idle, and it DIES at 190-195????

Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 04:56 PM

Quote:

well here's an update. I installed the rubber seal between the hood and rad support. I installed a 180* deg Mr Gasket high-flow stat. also removed the pusher electric fan. Now everything is stock except the high flow stat. WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE. The car used to drive (correction to my old post now that i payed attention to the gauge) 190 when crusin, and creeped from there at a stop, probably reaching 200 then vapor lock symptoms were setting in. Now it cruises at 175-180; it cycles between there, you can see the stat open and close, when it opens it drops instantly to 175, then slowly goes to 180. Last night i put the parking brake on, left it idling in gear for 15 mins, after a 1hr drive, and it stayed rock solid at 180. Plus i can hardly believe how much less engine compartment heat there is now. Also one thing that i thought was stupid when i was doing, but did anyways was wrap the fuel line in tinfoil. to my total amazement the fuel line is cold now, where before it was almost impossible to touch > that one blew me away. Anyways, i still have the milodon high flow pump on order, i'll put that in as well and i'm positive my running hot issues are solved now. thanks for all the help guys, i was really stumped on this one. i could not believe regular old tin foil was so effective at reflecting heat as it does. The part of the fuel line that i didn't wrap with foil was hot, and the part i did was totally cold!!!! i have a new item to add to my tool box as well as the following "must have items": duct tape, electrical tape, zip ties, JB weld, hammer, automotive GOOP, TIN FOIL!!!! i'm convinced that with these items anything can be fixed!!!

You can't believe what a good aluminum foil deflector beanie will do either! Put one on while you drive around and you'll be amazed! It will actually make you forget that anything is wrong with the car at all!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 04:59 PM

Martin I'm just wondering what changed from when it was ok to now all of a sudden when it's acting up(vac leak,bad gas,pinhole leak in head gasket) but if it was something obvious I'm sure you would already know what it is. Dont give up we are with you on this one

Posted By: TrueTripleX

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 05:34 PM

One more idea to consider. Do a block check at the radiator. I have had it happen where there was head gasket damage and it was leaking exhaust gases (and temperature) back in to the cooling system. Simple test to eliminate another possible cause.

Attached picture 4469740-shopphoto4cars.JPG

Attached picture 4469740-shopphoto4cars.JPG

Posted By: ademon

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 06:39 PM

Better check your fuel pump pushrod, a lot of your driveability problems my stem from a rod that is short and not filling your bowls compleatly. these usually wear out.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 07:25 PM

Quote:

Better check your fuel pump pushrod, a lot of your driveability problems my stem from a rod that is short and not filling your bowls compleatly. these usually wear out.

just pulled the fuel pump out, the push rod measures exactly to the service manual specs, with no wear at all. pump feels by hand to be really week when compared to the new one....

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 07:29 PM

Quote:

Martin I'm just wondering what changed from when it was ok to now all of a sudden when it's acting up(vac leak,bad gas,pinhole leak in head gasket) but if it was something obvious I'm sure you would already know what it is. Dont give up we are with you on this one

I'm wondering the same, NOTHING CHANGED, this has progressively been getting worse and worse. Vac is 17" at idle in gear hot, rock steady. NO oil being used, NO coolant being used either, coolant perfectly clear, no scum/bubbles when running hot at idle, or when revved....so i would think the head gasket is fine...

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 08:22 PM

Oh I misunderstood I thought it happened all of a sudden.if its perfectly ok when moving but the temp starts to creep up at idle I gotta go back to what has been mentioned earlier not enough either air flow or water circulation(or a combination of both) but you've covered about everything so something that has already been touched on is not doing it's job. If I had to GUESS if I was sure that there was plenty of air flowing thru the rad then I would bite the bullet & get a better radiator(more area,more cores).The more I think about this if it was my deal I would buy a GOOD radiator.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 08:29 PM

Quote:

Oh I misunderstood I thought it happened all of a sudden.if its perfectly ok when moving but the temp starts to creep up at idle I gotta go back to what has been mentioned earlier not enough either air flow or water circulation(or a combination of both) but you've covered about everything so something that has already been touched on is not doing it's job. If I had to GUESS if I was sure that there was plenty of air flowing thru the rad then I would bite the bullet & get a better radiator(more area,more cores).The more I think about this if it was my deal I would buy a GOOD radiator.

I have a GOOD rad, actually it cooled fine last year it's just this summer. I don't want to throw parts at this and waste $$$$, everything is new....it's gotta be something else; the cooling system is fine. You can feel the air flow at idle at the grille outside the car and it feels quite strong. If i open the hood you feel tonns at air come thru the rad. it easily sucks up a sheet of paper to the face of the rad...i don't see buying a new rad as a solution...

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 08:41 PM

alright you've got me convinced,it sure doesn't sound like a rad or airflow problem like I got convinced it was. I was ready to bet my last buck on(radiator)

BUT hot at idle,not when moving sure sounds like classic not enough either air or water movement. I give(for now)

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 09:00 PM

If you idle with the hood up does the temp still creep up?

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 09:11 PM

Quote:

If you idle with the hood up does the temp still creep up?

well in gear yes, idle the N or P with the hood open or closed, perty much stays 180-185.

Posted By: 472 R/T SE

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 10:17 PM

Quote:

Think your block passages are pristine ? If you haven't had it hot tanked yet, knock out one of the core plugs and tell us what horrors you see !!

I have to agree with this.

Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/05/08 11:29 PM

yes but this same rad did cool the car, now all of a sudden running hot, surge at cruise, heating at idle, and it DIES at 190-195????

You definetaly have other issues . 10 or 15 degrees from the "magical" 180 mark souldn,t cause your engine to stall out .

Have you ever tested the fuel pump output?

It Could also be a weak igition box etc.

I,d try that new fuel pump and go from there .do a flow test on it to Make sure the fuel line /filter /sock aren,t partially clogged up which will be more apparent at operating temps . Also some 440 cars came factory with a fuel vapor sepertor which is basically a return line which couldn,t hurt . Most parts stores carry fuel filters like this but you would have to run a return line back to the tank.

Wouldn,t hurt to ditch that edelcrock carb either

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 04:28 AM

I've been following this one for curiousity's sake-one thing I thought of- maybe your damper has slipped and the timing is retarded. Confirm TDC.

Posted By: Joshs68

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 05:11 AM

try putting a cap on the vacuum advance . put all of the timing in mechanically. It is a free suggestion. put a piece of duct tape on it for a test if it works spring for a fancy nipple cover.
I have a 470" b engine with a 22" radiator. no fan shroud, 5 blade clutch fan. 34 deg total all mech. vac advance plugged. runs 180-185 deg.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 02:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Think your block passages are pristine ? If you haven't had it hot tanked yet, knock out one of the core plugs and tell us what horrors you see !!

I have to agree with this.

I don't know what i have to say for you guys to stop with the dirt in the motor, it's a <10000mi build that was hot tanked, cleaned by a rep machine shop. Plus the rad is new and a 3 core i just looked at it with the fluid drained; which by the way looks like it's new out of the bottle. IT'S NOT THE RAD/BLOCK, 110%.

I would consider a blown head gasket before i suspect a good motor build/new rad for crud.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 02:20 PM

Quote:

I've been following this one for curiousity's sake-one thing I thought of- maybe your damper has slipped and the timing is retarded. Confirm TDC.

That would be un-likely, since I've advanced it (with vac plugged) and went WOT until I got ping (which was around 38deg total mech adv), and then backed it off to 35, plus it starts perfect, almost instantly no kick back on the starter. Also the damper was new when the motor was rebuilt, and the PO marked the outer ring, and inner hub before he installed it, and they line up still....

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 02:22 PM

Quote:

try putting a cap on the vacuum advance . put all of the timing in mechanically. It is a free suggestion. put a piece of duct tape on it for a test if it works spring for a fancy nipple cover.
I have a 470" b engine with a 22" radiator. no fan shroud, 5 blade clutch fan. 34 deg total all mech. vac advance plugged. runs 180-185 deg.

actually last time i was out, when it ran hot, i stopped at a park, and let it cool off. I always keep caps on exposed studs in the engine bay for when i'm checking timing, i disconnected the vac adv on the drive home, and capped the carb port, still the same, at the few lights i stopped at it crept and was still running like a$$....

Posted By: black64

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 06:24 PM

You have covered a lot of areas, but are you sure you do not have any vacuum leaks at the intake that would lean out your fuel mixture at idle causing the temp to rise?

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 06:34 PM

Quote:

You have covered a lot of areas, but are you sure you do not have any vacuum leaks at the intake that would lean out your fuel mixture at idle causing the temp to rise?

Well this was my train of thought, the car has 17" of vaccum at idle hot in gear (650-700rpm). So i could possibly rule out the intake as leaking. I did re-torque it, it was not loose at all, nice and tight.

I changed the fuel pump, filter, and i'm going to completely take the carb apart and clean it (hopefully i'll find something). If all that checks out ok, i'm going to then concentrate on iginition. Maybe something is getting hot/failing like the ecu, coil, ballast resistor, pick-up. i'll change one part at a time to see if it gets fixed.

If that does'nt work, I TOTALLY GIVE UP!!!

What i have just done:
-flush/drain cooling system (old coolant by the way was like NEW/very clear/clean).
-new rad cap.
-high flow stat 180.
-milodon high flow water pump.
-new heater hoses (were too close to exhaust manifolds).
-new carter fuel pump and new fuel filter.

When i start it, i'll re-adjust the idle mixture with a vac guage, check timing, and

At this point i'd be happy if the car would run 190ish and NOT DIE on me. If it'll hold temp at under 200 when it's hot and not die i'd be happy as a pig in $hit!!!!.

Also today is stupid hot in Toronto, so tonite will be a good test, wish me luck.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 06:35 PM

whats your convertor , stock ?

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 06:40 PM

Quote:

whats your convertor , stock ?

yes, stock. everything is stock except for the new parts i just put on, eddy CH4B intake, and eddy 750 afb carb, TTi 2.5 exhaust with h-pipe, stock exhaust manifolds, 70+ voltage regulator with 3 wire alt, mp perf ele ign.....

Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 08:47 PM

Remove one spring from the distributor weights and slightly stretch the other one. You don't have enough INITIAL advance.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/06/08 08:58 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse, but you really need to find out if it is overheating because of lack of cooling (radiator, pump, airflow) or if the engine is generating too much heat (mixture, timing, vacuum leaks). Until you figure out which it is, all of this is guessing and throwing parts at it.

Besides, I thought it was OK again now.

Posted By: 340Scamp

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 12:43 AM

with GODSCOUNTRY340

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 12:48 AM

If you want to test the advance theory, there is no need to mod or remove springs. His problem is at idle, so all he has to do is advance his base timing to see what happens.

Posted By: black64

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 02:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

whats your convertor , stock ?

yes, stock. everything is stock except for the new parts i just put on, eddy CH4B intake, and eddy 750 afb carb, TTi 2.5 exhaust with h-pipe, stock exhaust manifolds, 70+ voltage regulator with 3 wire alt, mp perf ele ign.....

If you did not have the problem before you put the above parts on it they must be the problem either the intake/carb or in the mp ignition. Since you mentioned running rough and dieing out it seems either a weak spark or lean air/fuel mixture when the engine gets warm which creats higher temps. What ignition module did you use? Where the parts new?

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 02:29 AM

I had this same exact problem. Drove me nuts, and I live in AZ, where it gets 110+ in the summer. At stoplights and drivethrus, my temp would creep up to 240! Here's what I did:

1.Installed B-Cool Radiator and overflow can.
2. Brand New Stock Water Pump, not high flow or anything like that.
3. Miloden 180 thermostat
4. Flexalite 210/220 dual puller fan (this was after trying highflow flex fan, HD Fan Clutch, New Viscous fan, etc etc etc - none of it helped)
5. Flushed and drained system til it ran clear, about 6 or 7 times...

Hope this helps, it worked for me. I didn't go through all the posts, but what do you have for an overflow can? This is important because when the radiator gets hot/pressurized, the excess fluid goes into the overflow, then is pulled back in when needed. I can't stress enough, check the small things. Make sure there's no air pockets or something like that.

Good luck, I feel your pain.

Posted By: Pool Fixer

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 03:55 AM

my charger with a 440 does a similar thing. moving it will be locked in at about 170-180. at idle it will creep up, but if i turn on my electric fan, it stabilizes..im running a mild 440, be cool direct fit rad, flowkooler waterpump, 160 tstat,fixed flex fan, shroud, and a 16' pusher electric on the front. tranny runs through a seperate cooler, and not through the rad.

i, too, am running a rebuilt, carbed motor. block was tanked, etc...

i still don't like it. I don't want to have to use an electric as a crutch. I have always suspected the flowkooler or any high performance pump. I don't know why, but maybe the stock pump in the stock housing moved the coolant the most efficiently. maybe slapping on a superduperdeluxbignuts water pump screws that up..maybe they cavitate or just move the coolant too fast. lots of r and d went into this stuff years ago and we go throwing these parts on because it looks nice in the summit catalog.

I read a story of a guy with a kitcar cobra or something like that years ago who was running a smallblock ford that would just not stay cool. ended up that he was running a 'not quite right" water pump. got the right one and his trouble went away.. so maybe it's possible to be running a "stock" pump and still have the wrong one?

what's real strange is there are guys here running big motors on puny radiators with no trouble at all. no shrouds, stock systems......

Posted By: BobR

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 04:56 AM

Cooling has quite a bit to do with cylinder wall thickness as well. If you are overbored this may be part of the issue. The thinner the walls are the more heat escapes through them into your cooling system. -Bob

Posted By: Neil

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 05:11 AM

Wouldn't most of the heat generated be up in the cylinder head? When you fire up an engine the cylinder heads get warm far faster than the block and there is coolant in both places.

I used to have a 350 in my truck that ran always ran hot. I used the parts store type water pumps and always figured it ran hot because I was told the engine was bored .060 when I bought it. I have since replaced that engine with a 400 small block. I took the heads off the old 350 the other day and it was only .030 over. So much for that excuse.

On the new 400 I built I was warned by several people that those engines can't be kept cool on the street because they are a siamese bore block. I had no experiance with them, but knew I didn't want to build another 350 so I ended up buying an edlebrock water pump as I was told they really work wonders. Needless to say the 400 runs cooler than the 350 ever did. I think my 350 ran hot just because the stock style water pumps are barely capable of cooling a stock engine. Add a cam, headers, etc and you are pushing your luck.

The edlebrock pumps have huge curved blades and no extra space within the pump cavity. Every bit of fluid that enters is pushed out the other side. The edelbrock pump works by moving as much fluid as possible.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/07/08 01:53 PM

Bob is definitely right on the overbore, it can be a huge issue, especially if you have any core shift.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it appears that some of the pump manufacturers are putting non-mopar impellers in their pumps. I saw one a friend had bought, (small block) and it had an impeller that was between the diameter of the small and large Mopar ones, with 8 blades. I think it was a GM impeller. I don't think anyone knows if the flow and pressure out of a pump like this is correct for a Mopar, or what speed it should really run.

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/08/08 05:10 PM

well, i have good news.....

I've done everything i listed in my last post, and the car ran at 175-180 with the new pump, ect....but still ran a little crappy after about an hour of driving....so i changed the coil, and the problem disappeared completely. By the way, this weekend in toronto, it's been extremely hot out, 39*deg C, and very humid. perfect testing grounds. I can see a huge difference in water flow in the rad at idle, where before coolant would just barley move past the top, now at idle it's a very nice stream of coolant. Huge difference in cooling, the car runs great now, last night at a cruise night i was idling for 15mins in this heat, the car did get to 190, but not higher, the electric fan really makes a big difference at idle in gear stopped, it really keeps things under control. Funny, this is the 3rd coil i've tested, 2 new ones, 1 old one that was a known good one, they all failed, and the one that works perfectly is the big old accell yellow plastic one, that was the coil on the car when i bought it and drove it from Minnesota to Toronto in retarded hot conditions, and the car never went over 200-205 in insane heat. I also changed the ballast resistor, hot i was getting 8-9 volts at the coil, but changed it for piece of mind. The upgrades I've done to the cooling system (high flow stat, and water pump) really made a big difference. I can't believe i have 3 crappy coils....I can officially say the car is ok now.....thank GOD>.....

Posted By: black64

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/09/08 12:36 AM

Good to see you got the problem fixed. One thing to remember if your coil is mounted horizontal, is to make sure the terminals are facing down or bottom of the coil so the oil covers the connections. If the terminals are up the connection can get hot and cause failure from overheating if the oil is below the connections.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/10/08 08:11 PM

What water pump did you end up using????

Posted By: 69chargeryeehaa

Re: I give up, 440's just run HOT - 06/10/08 08:21 PM

Quote:

What water pump did you end up using????

milodon high flow pump, # 16260. dont' forget the thermostat; high flow too.

linky: http://www.milodon.com/water-pumps/water-pumps.asp

I give up, 440's just run HOT