727 fluid- What to use?
#629438
03/03/10 04:36 AM
03/03/10 04:36 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481 Mesa, AZ
Pat_Whalen
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481
Mesa, AZ
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I tried a search but it didn't give me too many solid results. Some people say Type F in a street/strip application. Other's say Type F is too old and doesn't have to additives required to last long. Some say Dexron is the approved fluid. What I was able to find locally was Dex/Merc. Transmission is going behind a stock/mild 440 in a heavy Ramcharger. If it makes a difference, I don't want to have to tear down the trans every couple thousand miles and the truck will be driven in Arizona (6 months out of the year might be pushing 100 degrees.) Thanks in advance. Cheers, Pat
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#629441
03/03/10 01:51 PM
03/03/10 01:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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I used Type F for years till I switched to Amsoil in the race car. Still use Type F in the 72.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: stumpy]
#629448
03/03/10 06:02 PM
03/03/10 06:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission. Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced. Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life". Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: CompSyn]
#629451
03/03/10 08:58 PM
03/03/10 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,460 Florida STAYcation
dOOc
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,460
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.
Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.
Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".
Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
Hey C S ....
Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?
In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.
Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.
Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: dOOc]
#629452
03/04/10 12:26 AM
03/04/10 12:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274 s.w.fl
bonefish
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
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in my 11.00 sec b-body street car i just use what ever is on sale or the cheapest,mix and match,been shiftin hard for 35,000 mi.but who knows mabey its gettin ready to prematurly fail.
Last edited by bonefish; 03/04/10 12:28 AM.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: 383man]
#629454
03/04/10 01:51 AM
03/04/10 01:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314 Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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If it's a driver, I can't see why you'd want type F. The best in 50's technology can probably be improved on. Even ford guys stopped using it in 79. In the same breath, the 727 isn't cutting edge either, so it is pretty forgiving with whatever fluid you want. For me, I know modern transmissions put MUCH bigger demands on the fluid, as far as heat etc.. That said, modern fluids have to take up the slack. Much Like 383 man, I work at a dealership (fordstore for me though) and get the fluid for a pretty good deal. I use mercon 3/dexron 3 curently, but we don't sell it anymore. Replaced with mercon 5, so that's what'll be in the car this year. If money is a factor, a 20 litre/5 gallon pail of dexron 3 is pretty cheap at walmart.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: dOOc]
#629456
03/04/10 09:33 AM
03/04/10 09:33 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.
Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.
Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".
Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
Hey C S ....
Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?
In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.
Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.
Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?
Doc, I'm sure glad you're around. Civilized debate is always oh so splendid. Great to see you.
The OP wants to know about automatic transmission fluid options. I informed him of the ideas and opinions of a couple authors, Frank Adkins and Carl H. Munroe, two individuals who are accomplished mechanics and who have been involved in the automotive hobby for decades. Between their statements, it becomes at least somewhat apparent that it's important to select the right ATF for the right application. Don't you think the OP should at least know the possible pros and cons to using any given type of ATF so that he can make an informed discussion of his own?
You provided him information that his transmission may be reliable up to 40,000-miles with Type F and that you feel, “Type F .... holds up BESTER to heat”.
That’s great, maybe he has some directions he can go in now?
I submit to you that since we are not living in the 60s anymore and have had some technological advancements in lubrication technology since then, there very well could be better options than Type F.
Since we know that high performance automatic transmissions can generate lots of heat very quickly and that conventional petroleum products break down and are not very shear stable in high heat extremes, a modern Dexron/Mercon Synthetic ATF may be an attractive option.
And perhaps that by properly building and programming the transmissions shift points, it won’t be necessary to mix and mismatch ATF types to achieve the desired shift performance?
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: Pat_Whalen]
#629457
03/04/10 09:59 AM
03/04/10 09:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Type F is about the last of the unmodified AFTs. All of the Dex/Merc and related ATFs are friction modified. The modified ATF's change the way the clutches and bands grab and hold. All things being equal, the clutches and bands will grab quicker and harder with an unmodified ATF than a modified ATF. (They also may effect the release)
Things have become far more complicated in recent years due to the computers for the automatics. Dexron II or III is hard to find. Here's a repost from another list of my conclusions in 2008 as to what commonly available fluid to put in a torqueflite 727 or 9xx.
Type F. It's in a category of its own. The only unmodified atf with a dynamic coefficient that increases as clutches and bands lock up - resulting in firmer shifts. If that's what you need, great. Drawback is that the fluid doesn't hold up as long.
Of the modified ATFs, the options in order of preference: 1. Dexron VI. This is GM's current standard. By definition, Dex VI is fully synthetic and has the lowest low temperature viscosity. That's great for street and the first autocross run of the day. However, what convinced me that this is probably the best current replacement (unless Type F is wanted) was that several manufacturers specifically list it as backward compatible to Dex III *and* Dex II.
2. Synthetics. Several manufacturers offer synthetics labled as appropriate for Dex III applications. e.g. Mobile 1 Synthetic, Castrol Syntec, Valvoline Synpower. But it seemed that if the manufacturer offered a Dex VI, they stated Dex VI is the prefered replacement. (Valvoline, Mobile)
3a Dexron/Mercon. These are probably all fine - especially if the trans has some leaks - since its generally cheaper than options 1 & 2. A lot of people who post on the web and seem to be knowledgeable like to point out that Dexron III and earlier 'no longer exist'. What they mean is that GM is no longer licensing the early versions, therefore what is being sold may or may not meet the former Dex III standards. My feeling is that may be technically true, but the companies have other incentives to make sure these products are what they say they are.
3b Dexron/Mercon - a chronology. Gleanings from the web (which appear to be more substantial than wild rumors, but you've been warned). Dexron II 1973 - 1987 Dexron IIe was for electronic controls & had extra cleaning agents. Mercon 1992- Contained less wax than Dexron Dexron III c.1993 - Similar to Mercon. Lower low temperature viscosity than earlier versions. Said to have better oxidation resistance and improved seal life. Not all agree on the compatibility.
4. ATF+3, ATF+4. Similar to Dexron but formulated specifically for Chrysler transmission control modules. All of the manufacturer spec sheets I found on-line seemed to agree - NOT recommended for DEX 3 applications.
5. Mercon V. Seems to be the Ford version of Chrysler's ATF+. Also not fully backward compatible.
6. Multi purpose: Probably the same as Dex/Merc, but better check the manufacturers recommendations. Seems like too much of crapshoot for people who care about how the autogear changer shifts.
These were my conclusions and obviously others may come to different conclusions. I've used Dex II and III, Type F, ATF+, Dex VI at one time or another in my own 727s. The only one that I was really unhappy with how it seemed to effect the shifting were the ATF+3/+4. I'm currently using Dex VI in the leak free trans and Dex/Merc in the Jeep with rear leak. -- Matt 67 Barracuda nb 340 TF727 85 Grand? Wagoneer AMC 360 TF727 np229
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