727 fluid- What to use?
#629438
03/03/10 04:36 AM
03/03/10 04:36 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481 Mesa, AZ
Pat_Whalen
OP
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OP
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Mesa, AZ
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I tried a search but it didn't give me too many solid results. Some people say Type F in a street/strip application. Other's say Type F is too old and doesn't have to additives required to last long. Some say Dexron is the approved fluid. What I was able to find locally was Dex/Merc. Transmission is going behind a stock/mild 440 in a heavy Ramcharger. If it makes a difference, I don't want to have to tear down the trans every couple thousand miles and the truck will be driven in Arizona (6 months out of the year might be pushing 100 degrees.) Thanks in advance. Cheers, Pat
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#629441
03/03/10 01:51 PM
03/03/10 01:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
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BROOK PARK, OH
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I used Type F for years till I switched to Amsoil in the race car. Still use Type F in the 72.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: stumpy]
#629448
03/03/10 06:02 PM
03/03/10 06:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
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Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission. Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced. Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life". Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: CompSyn]
#629451
03/03/10 08:58 PM
03/03/10 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424 Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
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Quote:
Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.
Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.
Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".
Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
Hey C S ....
Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?
In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.
Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.
Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: dOrk !]
#629452
03/04/10 12:26 AM
03/04/10 12:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274 s.w.fl
bonefish
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s.w.fl
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in my 11.00 sec b-body street car i just use what ever is on sale or the cheapest,mix and match,been shiftin hard for 35,000 mi.but who knows mabey its gettin ready to prematurly fail.
Last edited by bonefish; 03/04/10 12:28 AM.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: 383man]
#629454
03/04/10 01:51 AM
03/04/10 01:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314 Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
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If it's a driver, I can't see why you'd want type F. The best in 50's technology can probably be improved on. Even ford guys stopped using it in 79. In the same breath, the 727 isn't cutting edge either, so it is pretty forgiving with whatever fluid you want. For me, I know modern transmissions put MUCH bigger demands on the fluid, as far as heat etc.. That said, modern fluids have to take up the slack. Much Like 383 man, I work at a dealership (fordstore for me though) and get the fluid for a pretty good deal. I use mercon 3/dexron 3 curently, but we don't sell it anymore. Replaced with mercon 5, so that's what'll be in the car this year. If money is a factor, a 20 litre/5 gallon pail of dexron 3 is pretty cheap at walmart.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: dOrk !]
#629456
03/04/10 09:33 AM
03/04/10 09:33 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
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Quote:
Quote:
Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.
Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.
Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".
Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.
Hey C S ....
Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?
In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.
Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.
Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?
Doc, I'm sure glad you're around. Civilized debate is always oh so splendid. Great to see you.
The OP wants to know about automatic transmission fluid options. I informed him of the ideas and opinions of a couple authors, Frank Adkins and Carl H. Munroe, two individuals who are accomplished mechanics and who have been involved in the automotive hobby for decades. Between their statements, it becomes at least somewhat apparent that it's important to select the right ATF for the right application. Don't you think the OP should at least know the possible pros and cons to using any given type of ATF so that he can make an informed discussion of his own?
You provided him information that his transmission may be reliable up to 40,000-miles with Type F and that you feel, “Type F .... holds up BESTER to heat”.
That’s great, maybe he has some directions he can go in now?
I submit to you that since we are not living in the 60s anymore and have had some technological advancements in lubrication technology since then, there very well could be better options than Type F.
Since we know that high performance automatic transmissions can generate lots of heat very quickly and that conventional petroleum products break down and are not very shear stable in high heat extremes, a modern Dexron/Mercon Synthetic ATF may be an attractive option.
And perhaps that by properly building and programming the transmissions shift points, it won’t be necessary to mix and mismatch ATF types to achieve the desired shift performance?
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: Pat_Whalen]
#629457
03/04/10 09:59 AM
03/04/10 09:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Type F is about the last of the unmodified AFTs. All of the Dex/Merc and related ATFs are friction modified. The modified ATF's change the way the clutches and bands grab and hold. All things being equal, the clutches and bands will grab quicker and harder with an unmodified ATF than a modified ATF. (They also may effect the release)
Things have become far more complicated in recent years due to the computers for the automatics. Dexron II or III is hard to find. Here's a repost from another list of my conclusions in 2008 as to what commonly available fluid to put in a torqueflite 727 or 9xx.
Type F. It's in a category of its own. The only unmodified atf with a dynamic coefficient that increases as clutches and bands lock up - resulting in firmer shifts. If that's what you need, great. Drawback is that the fluid doesn't hold up as long.
Of the modified ATFs, the options in order of preference: 1. Dexron VI. This is GM's current standard. By definition, Dex VI is fully synthetic and has the lowest low temperature viscosity. That's great for street and the first autocross run of the day. However, what convinced me that this is probably the best current replacement (unless Type F is wanted) was that several manufacturers specifically list it as backward compatible to Dex III *and* Dex II.
2. Synthetics. Several manufacturers offer synthetics labled as appropriate for Dex III applications. e.g. Mobile 1 Synthetic, Castrol Syntec, Valvoline Synpower. But it seemed that if the manufacturer offered a Dex VI, they stated Dex VI is the prefered replacement. (Valvoline, Mobile)
3a Dexron/Mercon. These are probably all fine - especially if the trans has some leaks - since its generally cheaper than options 1 & 2. A lot of people who post on the web and seem to be knowledgeable like to point out that Dexron III and earlier 'no longer exist'. What they mean is that GM is no longer licensing the early versions, therefore what is being sold may or may not meet the former Dex III standards. My feeling is that may be technically true, but the companies have other incentives to make sure these products are what they say they are.
3b Dexron/Mercon - a chronology. Gleanings from the web (which appear to be more substantial than wild rumors, but you've been warned). Dexron II 1973 - 1987 Dexron IIe was for electronic controls & had extra cleaning agents. Mercon 1992- Contained less wax than Dexron Dexron III c.1993 - Similar to Mercon. Lower low temperature viscosity than earlier versions. Said to have better oxidation resistance and improved seal life. Not all agree on the compatibility.
4. ATF+3, ATF+4. Similar to Dexron but formulated specifically for Chrysler transmission control modules. All of the manufacturer spec sheets I found on-line seemed to agree - NOT recommended for DEX 3 applications.
5. Mercon V. Seems to be the Ford version of Chrysler's ATF+. Also not fully backward compatible.
6. Multi purpose: Probably the same as Dex/Merc, but better check the manufacturers recommendations. Seems like too much of crapshoot for people who care about how the autogear changer shifts.
These were my conclusions and obviously others may come to different conclusions. I've used Dex II and III, Type F, ATF+, Dex VI at one time or another in my own 727s. The only one that I was really unhappy with how it seemed to effect the shifting were the ATF+3/+4. I'm currently using Dex VI in the leak free trans and Dex/Merc in the Jeep with rear leak. -- Matt 67 Barracuda nb 340 TF727 85 Grand? Wagoneer AMC 360 TF727 np229
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#629459
03/05/10 07:24 AM
03/05/10 07:24 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
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Quote:
Quote:
I submit to you that since we are not living in the 60s anymore and have had some technological advancements in lubrication technology since then, there very well could be better options than Type F.
Keep in mind that the new generation of fluids are formulated for a new generation of transmissions that, for the most part, have lockup (or partial lockup) converters and overdrive which has the planetary gears running most of the time.
OTOH, the performance 727 rarely used a lockup converter nor does it have the planetaries running the majority of the time.
Right, to clarify, I'm not referring to the newest of the new DEXRON® VI, MERCON® LV, SP low viscosity ATFs; don't run those in your 727.
What I am referring to is DEXRON® I, II, III compatible synthetic ATF.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: jef408]
#629461
03/05/10 08:05 AM
03/05/10 08:05 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,111 sw michigan
TB3CUDA
super stock
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if type f is the way to go,what maufacturer?valvaline,castrol??or just any type f,also is for race or street use,or both
Last edited by TB3CUDA; 03/05/10 08:16 AM.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: CompSyn]
#629463
03/05/10 10:20 AM
03/05/10 10:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Quote:
Right, to clarify, I'm not referring to the newest of the new DEXRON® VI, MERCON® LV, SP low viscosity ATFs; don't run those in your 727.
WRT the Dex VI we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Your competitors who make Dex VI specifically state it is backward compatible to Dex II and Dex III.
As far as I can tell, the differences in the ATF's friction modifiers are going to effect the way the clutch packs and bands grab. We're talking about what is happening for that brief moment while the clutch is slipping. That timing is critical in an automatic. However, as someone pointed out, it s hardly the only factor. Anyone who has modified their 727 ought to use the fluid characteristics their clutch supplier and/or builder recommends. Anyway, its the friction modifiers that result in Dex VI working fine for a plain ole 727 and ATF+ not working so well.
One advantage the Dex III had over II, and all the newer ATFs have over Dex III is the lower, low viscosity. An analogy to motor oil is that its like having a 10w-40 synthetic instead of a 20w-40 conventional oil. It means that even below operating temperature, the ATF acts more closely to the characterists it has when at operating temperature. For some applications, that's almost irrelevent, others its very important. For short drives and autocross, its important. If you're pulling to the line and loading the torque coverter, the fluid will be at operating temp real quick if it wasn't already.
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: stumpy]
#629466
03/05/10 03:26 PM
03/05/10 03:26 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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heres a ? I read on here that hydrolic fluid is even used and mixed with the tranz fluid whats the opinion on that? yea or nay..? can it be done safely?I just use the house brand dex/mec or F when I find it does it matter on the mixing of the 2? like said you cant get it all out,I just button mine back up with a manual VB..checked and no TC drain plug
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: Mattax]
#629468
03/06/10 09:28 AM
03/06/10 09:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
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Quote:
Quote:
Right, to clarify, I'm not referring to the newest of the new DEXRON® VI, MERCON® LV, SP low viscosity ATFs; don't run those in your 727.
WRT the Dex VI we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Your competitors who make Dex VI specifically state it is backward compatible to Dex II and Dex III.
As far as I can tell, the differences in the ATF's friction modifiers are going to effect the way the clutch packs and bands grab. We're talking about what is happening for that brief moment while the clutch is slipping. That timing is critical in an automatic. However, as someone pointed out, it s hardly the only factor. Anyone who has modified their 727 ought to use the fluid characteristics their clutch supplier and/or builder recommends. Anyway, its the friction modifiers that result in Dex VI working fine for a plain ole 727 and ATF+ not working so well.
One advantage the Dex III had over II, and all the newer ATFs have over Dex III is the lower, low viscosity. An analogy to motor oil is that its like having a 10w-40 synthetic instead of a 20w-40 conventional oil. It means that even below operating temperature, the ATF acts more closely to the characterists it has when at operating temperature. For some applications, that's almost irrelevent, others its very important. For short drives and autocross, its important. If you're pulling to the line and loading the torque coverter, the fluid will be at operating temp real quick if it wasn't already.
It's true, they tell us the latest Dex VI variant is backwards compatible with the Dex's before it. Let's hope their right, remember when they told us that API (SM) rated motor oils were backwards compatible with all other previous API rated oils? Many would disagree with that one today.
One thing is sure, there are some differences in viscosity, for example:
Synthetic Type F: 7.1 @ 212F
Synthetic Dex III: 7.6 @ 212F
Synthetic Dex VI: 6.0 @ 212F
Viscosity of the same ATFs cooled down to 104F
Synthetic Type F: 41.3 @ 104F
Synthetic Dex III: 38.9 @ 104F
Synthetic Dex VI: 29.8 @ 104F
Viscosity of the same ATFs cooled down to 32F (freezing)
Synthetic Type F: 205.3 @ 32F
Synthetic Dex III: 172.1 @ 32F
Synthetic Dex VI: 128.3 @ 32F
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: CompSyn]
#2273406
03/21/17 12:38 AM
03/21/17 12:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5 TX
CBODY67
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Not to specifically resurrect this thread, but . . . Until Chrysler started recommending Dexron (the original) in 1967 or 1968, the prior spec was the "old" Type A, Suffix A atf that everybody used. Ford Type "F" and Dexron appeared in the same model year.
CAR LIFE magazine had an excellent article on the fluids' differences and similarities, all in the quest of "the smoothest shift". The article claimed that in the then-new THM400, GM put more capacity in the clutches so they could make them slip upon initial engagement, which is what Dexron did. Upon initial engagement until clutch "lockup", the rate of slippage was greater, then decreased to "no slip".
Ford went another way. They used less clutch capacity to temporarily over-load the clutch to cause initial slippage until clutch lockup. Their Type "F" fluid had a grabbier initial friction coefficient that made up for the intended slippage in the clutch pack. Therefore, with that initial grabbiness of the fluid characteristics, Type "F" became the defacto "higher performance" fluid at a time when only B&M TrickShift existed as the performance atf alternative. From initial apply to full lockup was of the same time period for both approaches.
In TorqueFlite 727s for 1966, Chrysler went toward the cherished "imperceptible" shift by replacing the "flat" steels (1965 and prior) in the clutch packs with "wavy" steels. That in itself, replacing the wavys with flats, makes for a quicker and firmer shift with normal atf, but unless you know what's what, many might never know it. This was with the old Type A Suffix A fluid.
In the Chrysler "Police Car" book, it mentions that in 1962, the CHP's new maintenance director desired to cut costs, so he bought 20W motor oil and used it in the TorqueFlites as well as in the engines. Only rule was that after an extended pursuit, the unit come in for an oil change of the trans. It was also noted that other brands of transmissions did not take kindly to the 20W motor oil in the automatic transmission.
So, by 1969, Ford was all Type "F" (the incognito "performance" atf), with Dexron in GM and Chrysler automatics. Dexron II addressed atf cooler corrosion issues (trans cooler in the radiator tank), as earlier mentioned Dex II-E was for electronic conrols, and Dex III soon replaced it in the 1980s decade. Dex II-E had a quicker shift than Dex II, by observation, but adding the GM Automatic Trans Conditioner additive (usually for higher mileage units) to Dex II resulted in a similarly faster shift. Dex III came in about the time of more sophisticated lock-up torque converters.
The newer Dex VI is a semi-syn fluid that GM claims is fully backward compatible to all GM transmissions to model year 1949. An Allpar.com article has some great information on the longer service life of the semi-syn OEM atfs. Plus that Chrysler desired backward compatibility, but full-syn had some issues with seals, so semi-syn was used.
In our then-new 1966 Chrysler, upon cold starts, the trans would have a little delay in things getting up to pressure. After the first transmission service, it became necessary to start it in "N", rather than "P", to not have any delays. Allegedly, the factory-fill fluid was a multi-vis fluid, but the replacement was not.
When the LH cars came out, the first atf spec was Dex III + a Chrysler additive. Using just Dex III would result in decreased clutch friction life. The trans controller would monitor for slippage and increase line pressure 100 times/second to combat it. With the friction characteristics of Dex IIi alone, it would hammer the friction material from the facings in the converter and clutch packs. That'w what I read and also confirmed that the fwd UltraDrives were notorious for "running fine" and then wouldn't move after they were parked. The module adjusted line pressure to combat slippage right until it was metal-to-metal in the clutches.
The Chrysler ATF+__ fluids came into being with the UltraDrive and later LH cars. As I recall ATF+3 was backward compatible for earlier automatics.
In later years, many changes to frictional characteristics of atf were made related to converter clutch issues. Some OEMs now modulate "lockup" levels (between 0 and 100%) depending upon operational environments.
GM is not licensing Dex III any more, as Ford is not licensing Type "F" any more, with "Dex/Merc" being the default replacement for Dex III.
Earlier on, it was claimed that if you used Dex in a Ford Type "F" spec transmission, the clutches would cook. Or if you used Type "F" in a GM trans, it would break, but only putting Dex in a Ford Type "F" trans might cause problems. Note that after a particular model year, Ford spec'd Dex for a few years before their "Mercon" fluid family came out. It's suspected that Mercon IV is very similar to Dex III but customized for Ford's desired converter lockup characteristics . . . plus some shops use Mercon IV where Dex III is spec'd
Many trans shops have their own likes and dislikes for trans fluid specs and what they will or will not work in. We've gone from a generic Type A Suffix A fluid spec to very specialized fluid specs over the past 50 years.
Back to the TorqueFlite without lock-up torque converters, historically you can use pretty much any common atf available. Some are a little ligter viscosity than others (faster shifts and better fluid flow), but common Dex III seemed to work just fine. In racing applications, a syn fluid (as Amsoil) works good, too.
The newer fluids have more additives and friction modifiers in them than any prior atf, with some being semi-syn or full syn. As GM claims Dex VI to be backward compatible to 1949, is a semi-syn, that migt be a good choice of "normal" atfs. There are plenty of higher-performance atfs, too. In any event, watch for color and smell changes in whatever atf you use and change it if those things change significantly.
CBODY67
Last edited by CBODY67; 03/21/17 12:55 AM.
66-CL42, 67-CE23, 70-DH43 Each under about 25K built. Numbers decrease with options and colors! How'd I manage that?
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Re: 727 fluid- What to use?
[Re: CBODY67]
#2273804
03/21/17 05:54 PM
03/21/17 05:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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As GM claims Dex VI to be backward compatible to 1949 Is that reality or simply an excuse to avoid having to have numerous different fluids on the parts shelf? Ditto for Mopar ATF+4.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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