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Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
#626900
02/28/10 01:17 PM
02/28/10 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 660
East Lansing, Michigan
OldHippie
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
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Posts: 660
East Lansing, Michigan
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cars. In particular, when the '67 cars were widened to accommodate the B/RB/Hemi engine families the front track width was widened but not the rear. Does this mean from, say, the Transmission or Torsion Bar cross members back every thing is in pretty much the same place? What I was thinking was that a Summit/Jegs pre-bent exhaust system might be a close enough fit to make it much simpler to fit rather than scratch building a complete system. I pretty much hate muffler shop compression bent systems.
The Old Hippie Hisself
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: OldHippie]
#626901
02/28/10 01:44 PM
02/28/10 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,177
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Park Forest, IL
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IIRC, the gas tank area is different between my '66 Valiant and '76 Duster. There may be issues back there.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: OldHippie]
#626902
02/28/10 01:47 PM
02/28/10 01:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Glendale, AZ
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The only problem I can think of would be the trans crossmember and the gas tank. The cross member may or may not have the cutout on each side for both pipes to run under. The gas tank may present a problem as well considering I dont think there were and factory dual exhaust cars from 63-66. Even the Formula S Barracudas and the 273 Commando Darts had a single outlet on the drivers side. It can be done, but you may have to do a little modification to the tailpipes. Other than that, its a good kit. I have run many on my own cars over the years, in both 2.5" and 3" setups.
1969 Nova
454/M21/3.31
Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: OldHippie]
#626903
02/28/10 01:47 PM
02/28/10 01:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
rbstroker
super stock
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super stock
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Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
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Nope. Won't work. Another thing to remember is that the early A's never had a dual exhaust provision built into the crossmember.
This is the land of the free
because of the brave
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: OldHippie]
#626904
02/28/10 01:49 PM
02/28/10 01:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
master
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master
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South-Central (Sebring), FL
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I can address one issue right up front. The "new" for '67 A-bodies were not " widened to accommodate the B/RB/Hemi engine families ". Stuffing a BB into one of them tiny things in 1968 was a last min. response to the very fast changing market for musclecars. I don't think it was even in their wildest imagination when they were working on the redisign years earlier. "You want to stuff a WHAT into that Dart???" 
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#626905
02/28/10 01:54 PM
02/28/10 01:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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master
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South-Central (Sebring), FL
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Quote:
Even the Formula S Barracudas and the 273 Commando Darts had a single outlet on the drivers side. It can be done, but you may have to do a little modification to the tailpipes.
The right exhaust pipe of a dual exhaust system designed to fit in '68 and up A-body will not fit in a '67 because of idler arm interferance.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: OldHippie]
#626906
02/28/10 01:57 PM
02/28/10 01:57 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Does this mean from, say, the Transmission or Torsion Bar cross members back every thing is in pretty much the same place?
Yep, from the torsion bar crossmember back, other than some slight differences in the floorpans, and of course the side-to-side single gas tank strap was replaced with front-to-rear dual straps in 68, they are virtually the same.
Quote:
What I was thinking was that a Summit/Jegs pre-bent exhaust system might be a close enough fit to make it much simpler to fit rather than scratch building a complete system. I pretty much hate muffler shop compression bent systems.
Back when you could still buy off-the-shelf Walker replacement exhaust and tail pipes for 340 A bodies, that's what I used in my 65 Barracuda. Had to modify the exhaust pipes from the manifolds to the trans crossmember, but from there back they were unaltered.
I still have Walker replacement Duster 340 tailpipes and 69 Barracuda tips on my 65 Barracuda:
My 65 also has rear springs, rear axle, 4-speed transmission and driveshaft from a 71 Duster 340 - all of which bolted in place w/o any modification whatever.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: rbstroker]
#626907
02/28/10 02:03 PM
02/28/10 02:03 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Nope. Won't work. Another thing to remember is that the early A's never had a dual exhaust provision built into the crossmember.
See above. In addition, no, there is no provision in the early trans crossmember for dual exhaust. You can modify the crossmember, or just do what I did - and the way I've run the exhaust since first converting to dual exhaust in the early 70's - and that's just run the pipe under the crossmember. Makes it hang an inch or so lower. From the side, if you squat low enough, it looks like this:
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
#626908
02/28/10 02:08 PM
02/28/10 02:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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If you are capable of doing some cutting/trimming/welding you could buy the kit & mod what needed reworking along w trimming then boxing the trans xmember to have a scallop on each side. this would give you a good free flowing "no compression bend" system and I would highly suggest an X pipe.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Commando1]
#626909
02/28/10 02:08 PM
02/28/10 02:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 660
East Lansing, Michigan
OldHippie
OP
super gas
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OP
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Posts: 660
East Lansing, Michigan
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Why they were widened is not the point here. The fact that they were is. I know the x-member is not designed for a dual exhaust system on the early "A" cars. A little heat will create an oval spot to gain clearance at the X-member. What I wanted was the location of the mufflers and approximate location/routing of the tail pipes over the Rear end. If the routing of the Exhaust system is roughly the same (distance from the drive shaft) from the mufflers forward to about the x-member area then it would just eliminate a lot of custom fabrication. Since I am a lousy fabricator that is a good thing. It was just an idea I had and thought I would bounce it off of fellow members to see if any one had tried it.
413....just saw your reply and thank you very much. Do you have any pictures of under the car? The '65 Valiant I own had a muffler shop bent 2" system under it with 273 manifolds. The engine is a very mildly hotted 318 so the exhaust system was choking it something awful. I have a set of Spit Fire Headers ordered (I am a patient man) and will go with a 2 1/2" system out the back end.
Thanks to all.
Last edited by OldHippie; 02/28/10 02:17 PM.
The Old Hippie Hisself
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Commando1]
#626910
02/28/10 10:53 PM
02/28/10 10:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Fresno, CA
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Quote:
I can address one issue right up front. The "new" for '67 A-bodies were not "widened to accommodate the B/RB/Hemi engine families ". Stuffing a BB into one of them tiny things in 1968 was a last min. response to the very fast changing market for musclecars.
I don't think it was even in their wildest imagination when they were working on the redisign years earlier.
"You want to stuff a WHAT into that Dart???"
100% incorrect. Chrysler engineers were playing around with a 66 Valiant with a 383 stuffed into it. Plymouth had the 383 in a 67 Barracuda early enough to be in a Dec 66 magazine (think magazine lead time). The dual exhaust provision was in from DAY ONE with the 67 a-bodies even though every 273 had single exhaust.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#626911
02/28/10 11:25 PM
02/28/10 11:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
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master
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Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
100% incorrect. Chrysler engineers were playing around with a 66 Valiant with a 383 stuffed into it.
Are there any picture of that anywhere or other info? 
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: 446acuda]
#626913
03/01/10 11:41 AM
03/01/10 11:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
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Quote:
Quote:
100% incorrect. Chrysler engineers were playing around with a 66 Valiant with a 383 stuffed into it.
Are there any picture of that anywhere or other info?
Somewhere in my stack of magzines......
And Jim, I still doubt the Mr. Norm story on the 383. I'm fairly convinced it was about the 440 and 1968, but that's another debate for another day.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#626914
03/01/10 12:02 PM
03/01/10 12:02 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Layson's used to sell a trans crossmember with the cutout for dual exhaust for early A body. It was like $200 plus your old crossmember in exchange if I recall. I was going to do to my 66 Formula S but dealing with Layson's long lead time made me leery. I don't know if it still available.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#626915
03/01/10 12:45 PM
03/01/10 12:45 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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February 1967 issue of Car Craft, article on p. 54: Quote:
DODGE GETS 383 TREATMENT, Chicago's Mr. Norm doesn't believe in being number two, especially when it comes to selling high performance cars. When Chrysler gave the 383 engine to Plymouth for the Barracuda, Grand-Spaulding built its own special Dart.
Article goes on to say:
Quote:
With the 67 model year . . . Norm . . . had high hopes of getting a 383 Dart. On announcement day, however, they found Dodge had been by-passed in favor of the Barracuda, which Chrysler Corporation felt would compete more strongly against the Mustang. . . .
Norm took a top of the line Dart GT, which was equipped with a six-cylinder and automatic transmission, and put the shop's racing specialist, Frank Oglesby, to work in making the swap.
The Grand-Spaulding built 383 Dart was the one that was tested by Car Craft. It differed in several respects from the later production 383 Dart.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
#626916
03/01/10 12:51 PM
03/01/10 12:51 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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A bit later, Arlen Vanke swapped a 440 into a 67 Barracuda and showed it to Plymouth. See the June 1968 issue of Hot Rod Magazine, p. 54 ("Bigger Bite for Barracuda").
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
#626917
03/01/10 12:53 PM
03/01/10 12:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
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Quote:
February 1967 issue of Car Craft, article on p. 54:
Quote:
DODGE GETS 383 TREATMENT, Chicago's Mr. Norm doesn't believe in being number two, especially when it comes to selling high performance cars. When Chrysler gave the 383 engine to Plymouth for the Barracuda, Grand-Spaulding built its own special Dart.
Article goes on to say:
Quote:
With the 67 model year . . . Norm . . . had high hopes of getting a 383 Dart. On announcement day, however, they found Dodge had been by-passed in favor of the Barracuda, which Chrysler Corporation felt would compete more strongly against the Mustang. . . .
Norm took a top of the line Dart GT, which was equipped with a six-cylinder and automatic transmission, and put the shop's racing specialist, Frank Oglesby, to work in making the swap.
The Grand-Spaulding built 383 Dart was the one that was tested by Car Craft. It differed in several respects from the later production 383 Dart.
That still doesn't say anything about the oft0-cited claim that Norm showed them it fit. They (Chrysler) already knew it fit since the Barracuda and Dart are the same under the hood.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#626918
03/01/10 01:22 PM
03/01/10 01:22 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
That still doesn't say anything about the oft-cited claim that Norm showed them it fit. They (Chrysler) already knew it fit since the Barracuda and Dart are the same under the hood.
The article does say that he showed the finished conversion to Dodge and said this is what we need, but of course you're right - the Dart and Barracuda engine compartments are the same, so they already had to know it would fit.
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Re: Late Vs Early "A" Body.....
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#626919
03/01/10 08:58 PM
03/01/10 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
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Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
100% incorrect. Chrysler engineers were playing around with a 66 Valiant with a 383 stuffed into it.
Are there any picture of that anywhere or other info?
Somewhere in my stack of magzines......
And Jim, I still doubt the Mr. Norm story on the 383. I'm fairly convinced it was about the 440 and 1968, but that's another debate for another day.
Will you scan it and post it here if you find it? I'd be interested in seeing that article.
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I have heard numerous sources tell me about the disconnect of Dodge and Plymouth engineers throughout the years... 