Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: Jwilli500]
#62549
12/13/09 12:46 AM
12/13/09 12:46 AM
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Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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The facts are the 413 with same heads cam intake carb... will make Less power The 440 will make more power at the low RPM mid range RPM and will be more at higher RPM The 4.18 bore can make a lot of power, no one is argueing that bore size can not make a lot of power, no one said a 413 will not make a lot of power, just that the 440 will make more when it has the same equiptment, but the simple FACT is that it will not make as much power as the 440s bore size can. The valve will plain and simple be less shrouded in the 440 and will flow more air at virtually every lift includeing LOW lifts. As an aditional bonus with the bigger bore of the 440 you can put a bigger valve in it than you can a 413 and a bigger valve can flow even more at every lift includeing low lifts and will make more power than the port that is restricted to a valve that will fit a 413. The 413 will NOT make more power than a 440 in equally built engines. If a smaller bore is better than why not build a 383 RB and while you are at it you could throw in some sleeves to make the bores on that even smaller and really make some awesome power
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62550
12/13/09 12:52 AM
12/13/09 12:52 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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its which is.. well.. i have no idea what it is.
it is these STUPID claims that a 4.18" bore will not make horsepower.. that there "pathetic" "useless" etc. Hyper, bigblock, know the real story on these engines. the rest of you guys are being herded like sheep.
and Jack, the crank was a hypothetical example. but again.. prove it wrong.. if you can..
Ghost, I got this one. You guys are stuck on the (excuse me chevy guys, no disrespect) CHEVY style of engine building. Big (4 1/4 inch or better) slugs and medium stroke (3.75 or 4.00 strokes) big ports, hi-compression, big carb, single plane intakes and if automatic trans are used, they are using converters that launch the car in the midrange of it's powerband, knowingly trying to wing a 440 like a 383 (6000-6500 rpm maybe 7000) Strip fine, street racing borderlining dangerously street performance sucks. 413's may not be able to be winged like the above combo, but with it's strong low/midrange power, it will slip out in front of a 440 off the line with little to no problem.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62551
12/13/09 01:09 AM
12/13/09 01:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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A 413 absolutely wil not no way no how make more low end tq than a 440 that is identicle except bore size, no way none whatsoever and anyone who thinks it will has no understanding of what makes an engine work.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62552
12/13/09 01:10 AM
12/13/09 01:10 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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The facts are the 413 with same heads cam intake carb... will make
Less power
The 440 will make more power at the low RPM mid range RPM and will be more at higher RPM
The 4.18 bore can make a lot of power, no one is argueing that bore size can not make a lot of power, no one said a 413 will not make a lot of power, just that the 440 will make more when it has the same equiptment, but the simple FACT is that it will not make as much power as the 440s bore size can. The valve will plain and simple be less shrouded in the 440 and will flow more air at virtually every lift includeing LOW lifts. As an aditional bonus with the bigger bore of the 440 you can put a bigger valve in it than you can a 413 and a bigger valve can flow even more at every lift includeing low lifts and will make more power than the port that is restricted to a valve that will fit a 413. The 413 will NOT make more power than a 440 in equally built engines.
If a smaller bore is better than why not build a 383 RB and while you are at it you could throw in some sleeves to make the bores on that even smaller and really make some awesome power
Big Bores mean big valves, in a moderate stroke motor. Big carbs are used and as the r's go up in the motor, air flow is increased. The velocity is less at low speed in a 440 vs 413. The slightly smaller valves in the 413 actually have a better velocity at low speed than the 440. Flowing more air with better heads works, but bore/stroke combo of the 413 would favor a good flowing head with higher intake port velocity. This is the key to running a strong 413. Like I said not an upstairs motor, but plenty of torque to hold it's own anyplace, short of a full race or class-type motor.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62554
12/13/09 01:26 AM
12/13/09 01:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111 Bowie, MD
Reggie
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Gee where are the 426 guys???
Sitting back, having cold ones, laughing at the nonsense you are throwing in the forum.
I think they're sitting back laughing at all this fractured logic. I'm just waiting for someone to chime in that a 318 will run with a 340. Oh, wait - don't forget the 413 vs. 440 logic: better throw in a 3.58 crank first. There is nothing wrong with a 413, but saying it will spank a 440 with all things being equal just denies the laws of physics. Would I throw one away? Heck no. Would I drag one home if I got it for cheap? Heck yeah. There is always Dogdays's special 471 recipe.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62555
12/13/09 01:27 AM
12/13/09 01:27 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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You said the smaller bore was better. I mearly indicated that for port velocity the slightly smaller intake valve may have some advantage with this bore/stroke combo. every motor has their own operating characteristics. They may resemble each other, but no two engines are exactly alike.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62556
12/13/09 01:30 AM
12/13/09 01:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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Quote:
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The facts are the 413 with same heads cam intake carb... will make
Less power
The 440 will make more power at the low RPM mid range RPM and will be more at higher RPM
The 4.18 bore can make a lot of power, no one is argueing that bore size can not make a lot of power, no one said a 413 will not make a lot of power, just that the 440 will make more when it has the same equiptment, but the simple FACT is that it will not make as much power as the 440s bore size can. The valve will plain and simple be less shrouded in the 440 and will flow more air at virtually every lift includeing LOW lifts. As an aditional bonus with the bigger bore of the 440 you can put a bigger valve in it than you can a 413 and a bigger valve can flow even more at every lift includeing low lifts and will make more power than the port that is restricted to a valve that will fit a 413. The 413 will NOT make more power than a 440 in equally built engines.
If a smaller bore is better than why not build a 383 RB and while you are at it you could throw in some sleeves to make the bores on that even smaller and really make some awesome power
Big Bores mean big valves, in a moderate stroke motor. Big carbs are used and as the r's go up in the motor, air flow is increased. The velocity is less at low speed in a 440 vs 413. The slightly smaller valves in the 413 actually have a better velocity at low speed than the 440. Flowing more air with better heads works, but bore/stroke combo of the 413 would favor a good flowing head with higher intake port velocity. This is the key to running a strong 413. Like I said not an upstairs motor, but plenty of torque to hold it's own anyplace, short of a full race or class-type motor.
You are completly wrong, the 440 turning the same RPM weather it is low RPM or high RPM will have a higher port velocity if they are equiped with everything else identicle except bore size, it is because of the cubic inches NOT the bore size. The 440 will suck 220 cubic inches of air in one revolution the 413 will only suck 206.5 cubic inches of air per revolution, if you have the exact same size port then the air will have to move faster to flow 220 cubic inches through it then it will to flow 206.5 cubic inches of air. Velocity in a port is determined by cubic volume of air flowed VS the size of the port through witch it flows.
IF your statement was true than throw in the 383 RB motor and it will make more low RPM TQ than the mighty 413 and the Chrysler engineers knew this yet they kept makeing the engines with bigger and bigger bores to slow them down and make less TQ
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62557
12/13/09 01:35 AM
12/13/09 01:35 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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As it was said before, 440's will have the upstair power due to it larger bore. things will will be tight between them at low and midrange.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62558
12/13/09 01:43 AM
12/13/09 01:43 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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No Dave, Chrysler played the HORSEPOWER GAME along with GM, Ford and AMC. EVERYBODY PLAYED THE GAME, Bigger is better. Oh, by the way SmallBlock Magnum heads and AMC heads used this Hi-velocity, smaller valve tech and it seems to work a little better in the brackets, than all out heads for 11sec or greater.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62560
12/13/09 01:49 AM
12/13/09 01:49 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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And to the 383 RB motor, I would use it as a utility motor. No harm done to 383 fanatics, 383's are great too.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62561
12/13/09 03:40 AM
12/13/09 03:40 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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Believe your own hype Dave. A 440 will never push a 4500+lb sedan into the 13's high 12's like a 413. End of story. 440's show better performance in LIGHTER CHASSIS! That is why they run great times in A and "stripped down" B bodies. It isn't just motor alone. Mopar performance groups the "engine recipes" by series, and 413 and the 440 are in the same buildup cluster. Which tells me their performances is very SIMILAR. Stop pulling my leg, Dave. Weight hinders high end performance and if the 440 was put in a heavier chassis, they would run a little slower up top. Stop the , Dave, cut the superiorty nonsense.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62562
12/13/09 05:13 AM
12/13/09 05:13 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
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As it was said before, 440's will have the upstair power due to it larger bore. things will will be tight between them at low and midrange.
Still wrong on all counts. The 440 will crush it with low RPM tq due to the cubic inches and it will smash it on top end because of the ability to flow more air with a bigger bore and less shrouded valves. The low RPM TQ is a direct derivitive of the cubic inches and the 440 will kill an equally equipped 413.
um WRONG. small bores BIG strokes.. thats what wins in a killer street engine. being of EQUAL cubic inches mind you.
JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE: TOP FUEL ENGINES:
4.1875" bore x 4.500" stroke
remember kids.. just an example.. i know that isn't a street engine and its supercharged, but yet they choose to make the engine that way.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62564
12/13/09 09:30 AM
12/13/09 09:30 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 300 MA
Greg55_99
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Oh boy! Another 413 food fight! I can talk about motorhome 413's because I've got one and built it nearly 30 years ago. Here's a short list of things I pitched when I got my motor home 413: Heads got swappped for 440 items. Intake from Weiand. Couldn't use the cam or even the cam sprocket because the MH 413 version I had used a gear driven cam that turned backwards. Rockers and pushrods. Water pump and housing. Balancer. Oil pan. Distributor and drive gear. Pistons. Exhaust manifolds. Even little nit-noid brackets and bolts didn't fit. In other words, I had to nearly buy a complete 440 just to get the parts to put the MH 413 into a car. And in the end... I had a 413... down on cubes from a 440. So... that's the deal. If I had to do it over again today... I'd go for a stroked 400. Just me.... The OP mentions his 413 is coming out of a car. He's still going to have to upgrade to 440 specs... and... it's still going to be a 413. Greg
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#62565
12/13/09 12:07 PM
12/13/09 12:07 PM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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I've heard Andy is secretly working on a new book. Here's a sneak preview...
Just ribbin' ya Andy!
He sent me an advance copy. I hate to play spoiler but I will.
1st chapter outlines finding a 440 to build, or finding the best deal on a megablock.
2nd chapter details removing the 413 from your car.
My apologies to the "low buck, grass roots, 1/4mi 1/8mi, warriors who have the LOVE for the sport and the SPIRIT OF INNOVATION. Ignore the negative posts and simply build what you desire to build. Never "fall into the trap" of popular is best, or got to have a certain engine,let me trade or junk what I have. Sure there is a thing that there is no replacement for displacement. That may not be a universal rule for some of us. Run what you have, KNOW YOUR ENGINE AND IT'S LIMITATIONS whether it be a 225/6 or a 440 (and every displacement between the two). As far as you 440 guys honking about your buildups being better than 413's and 426's, I don't hear you squawking about SHUTTIN' DOWN HEMIS. Cmon now, they have 14 less cubes than you, what's the problem. Could it be some of you are simply "street bullies" that like to pick on their lower displacement sibilings to the point of MAKING EVERYONE RUN 440's. Some innovative spirit, guys. Get real. The horsepower race is on the decline. TORQUE IN THE RIGHT RANGE, and consistency will outweigh SOME horsepower advantages. Parts break less, engine/trannies last much longer and the car is much more fun to drive. Don't get me wrong, horsepower IS needed but torque is KING. Example: The Buick GS Series Vehicles. Love them.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62567
12/13/09 12:22 PM
12/13/09 12:22 PM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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8 pages! The 413 is not special, no way, it's a Legend by now...!
So, now we all agree that a 413 owns a 440 at just about anytime of the day I think it's time to move our 413-legend motor to the also legendary 426 Hemi.
If a lowly 440 can take a Hemi upto 4/5000 rpm, ofcourse you don't have to wonder how the legendary 413 would absolutely KILL the Hemi when it really comes down to it...
Hey man, the HEMI is a "tuners dream" to run. They are the "JUGGERNAUTS" of the MOPAR stable. However, the MOPAR big blocks will have a tough time beating them. It would be close, but not as close as you think. The HEMIS "upper mid- range to top-end" torque and horsepower is legendary. I don't think that many big blocks could run with it on the "big end". The big block needs to beat it out the "gate" and hold it off, 1/3 of the way down to have a chance of winning. Note: Another silly post!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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