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Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613278 02/15/10 10:02 PM 02/15/10 10:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,929 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,929 NC	Yea, that is how I see it. The pressure fed hole (enlarge to 3/32 to 1/8) will flow more fluid than the centrifugal flung holes in my last post. But I see them going together.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: 440Jim] #613279 02/15/10 10:03 PM 02/15/10 10:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,442 LOWELL IN Q QWK_ENUF top fuel
QWK_ENUF top fuel Q Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,442 LOWELL IN	I'm pretty fortunate as i live right by John Cope and i have not been kicked out of his shop yet and my trans gets any and all mods he thinks are needed' oh ya parts too and there is a lot of good info on here except for the " how to paint your block " by wild bill koffel WAXER

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: QWK_ENUF] #613280 02/15/10 10:15 PM 02/15/10 10:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio dartman366 I Live Here
dartman366 I Live Here Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio	Quote: a lot of good info on here except for the " how to paint your block " by wild bill koffel Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: QWK_ENUF] #613281 02/15/10 10:20 PM 02/15/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	I buy all my trans parts from John ( CRT ) and we have talk on the phone about this some ..But I hate to burn all his time up..I build my own trans and I only have to do it every 3 or so years. I am a auto tech do drivable/elec work have been for 30 years. I use to work in a trans shop but that's been 20 years ago.so I have to think long and hard about things when I work on one. I was hoping I and other's could learn from this...We need a good trans tech thread every now and then. just because some of us do it diff does not mean it wrong. I just to hear what you do and why YOU think its a good idea.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613282 02/15/10 10:33 PM 02/15/10 10:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	I just check them holes in the clutch basket( not sure what else to call it ) and they are .157 so I have drill them out before.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613283 02/15/10 11:19 PM 02/15/10 11:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct.	Quote: How do you know that the factory size hole supplies "full volume" in a performance situation. Got hard data? Was asking for your data since you have a firm opinion on this modification. Why are you taking this the wrong way ? Not questioning your ability or knowledge on these transmission but looking for real world data. Did you ever see an improvment due to this mod ?? Please share your findings, I will be interested. Quote: How do you "test", got a dyno? In my case with the bearing material in the oil, it will be trial and error. No dyno. Quote: Why do you question this mod? What's the possible downside of enlarging the hole? I question this mod since it looks to have the same missconseption like the acumulator spring. Why have all this oil and excess windage in and around the drum if its not needed ?? This oil is supplied from the converter circuit so ask yourself, do you want hot oil that hasn't circulated out of the cooler circuit in and around the clutches you claim are keeping cool ?? There are reasons I'm asking these questions. Just want to understand the effects of these mods... Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613284 02/16/10 12:10 AM 02/16/10 12:10 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction @ @#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk! @ Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction	I don't know about you, but I spend about 1.5 seconds in first gear. That's not much time to make heat. Quote: As to the reasoning think about this, in 1st gear the front cluth drum turns 80% of input shaft speed but in the opposite direction; so the surface speed of the discs is 180% of input shaft speed; lots of drag there. The extra volume of fluid helps keep the surfaces well lubricated and helps cooling especially at the higher rpm's that race cars turn.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: @#$%&*!] #613285 02/16/10 12:24 AM 02/16/10 12:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: I don't know about you, but I spend about 1.5 seconds in first gear. That's not much time to make heat. But if your on the trans brake you make about 100 degrees for every second your on the brake at max torque.... just something else to think about

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613286 02/16/10 01:32 AM 02/16/10 01:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: I question this mod since it looks to have the same missconseption like the acumulator spring. Not even in the same ball park, the removal of the accumulator spring can be proven to be of no benefit but enlarging the hole is debatable. Quote: Why have all this oil and excess windage in and around the drum if its not needed ?? Once again you state for a fact that this mod overloads the front drum with lube when it might actually be providing the amount of fluid that the drum actually needs but the factory cut short. Quote: This oil is supplied from the converter circuit so ask yourself, do you want hot oil that hasn't circulated out of the cooler circuit in and around the clutches you claim are keeping cool ?? But the fluid is tapped off before it enters the converter and gets heated, check the fluid flow diagrams. Quote: There are reasons I'm asking these questions. In the absence of any proof that enlarging the hole is detrimental to the function/life of the transmission I ask again.....why NOT do it. Just like the sprag lube mod shown above, the factory didn't feel that it's necessary to increase the lube to the sprag but sprag failure is one of the most common maladies in the TF; even after knowing this the factory has never addressed the problem. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613287 02/16/10 09:00 AM 02/16/10 09:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct.	Quote: But the fluid is tapped off before it enters the converter and gets heated, check the fluid flow diagrams. No need for me to look at the fluid diagrams, just look at the circuit itself. The drilling goes through the support and grabs oil from the converter feed directly in front of the pump. So you think it doesn't get hot in this area ?? I still havent seen anyone give any conclusive evidence that this is needed. If someone noticed a differece in durability once they done this then I'm sold. For now nothing said has provided that supporting evidence. Am I wrong ? The oil drilling in the rear of the case for the sprag makes sense to me and I'm sure there is more supporting evidence that it is needed BUT would like to keep this debate on the front feed hole like the original post was inquiring about. Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: dartman366] #613288 02/16/10 09:55 AM 02/16/10 09:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,226 Peoples republic of clackamas ... A atoetly pro stock
atoetly pro stock A Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,226 Peoples republic of clackamas ...	Quote: Quote: anybody see this post https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5795766 I agree, this is the kind of post we can all learn from, so let's not let it die an early death, sometime's the way thing's are written can be taken the wrong way, when in reality it may of not been intended that way. I used to have problem's with 904's not holding up,,I tried a lot of these mod's and now I have some pretty good success with them after reading the thing's that John Kunkle, John Cope, and 440Jim have written and applied to my home built tranny's I agree If it were not for these people my stuff would have been burned up and not working nearly as well as it does. I print up all their mods and keep them in a binder at home for reference. 5807429-IMG_5582.JPG (39 downloads)

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613289 02/16/10 05:45 PM 02/16/10 05:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: No need for me to look at the fluid diagrams, just look at the circuit itself. The drilling goes through the support and grabs oil from the converter feed directly in front of the pump. So you think it doesn't get hot in this area ?? Sure, all of the fluid is "hot" but my comment was in reply to your comment that the clutch lube is "hot oil that hasn't circulated out of the cooler circuit". The cooler circuit is fluid leaving the converter, the clutch lube is fluid entering the converter. Quote: I still havent seen anyone give any conclusive evidence that this is needed. Well, if you feel that way my advice would be to NOT perform this mod. I feel that there is no downside and it takes less than a minute to perform and it costs zilch. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613290 02/16/10 11:10 PM 02/16/10 11:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 761 Southington Ct.	Quote: Quote: No need for me to look at the fluid diagrams, just look at the circuit itself. The drilling goes through the support and grabs oil from the converter feed directly in front of the pump. So you think it doesn't get hot in this area ?? Sure, all of the fluid is "hot" but my comment was in reply to your comment that the clutch lube is "hot oil that hasn't circulated out of the cooler circuit". The cooler circuit is fluid leaving the converter, the clutch lube is fluid entering the converter. Quote: I still havent seen anyone give any conclusive evidence that this is needed. Well, if you feel that way my advice would be to NOT perform this mod. I feel that there is no downside and it takes less than a minute to perform and it costs zilch. John, Don't take this as a personal attack. Just wanted a healthy debate. In my opinion, I think it makes sense that there is an oil feed in this location. I really don't think that the size is that critical. I'm hoping that my own testing will shed some light on this. Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: MR_P_BODY] #613291 02/16/10 11:30 PM 02/16/10 11:30 PM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction @ @#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk! @ Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction	Quote: Quote: I don't know about you, but I spend about 1.5 seconds in first gear. That's not much time to make heat. But if your on the trans brake you make about 100 degrees for every second your on the brake at max torque.... just something else to think about We were talking about the front clutch pack, not the torque converter. I certainly hope the front clutch parts aren't turning when on the T-brake.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613292 02/17/10 04:44 PM 02/17/10 04:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,925 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: John, Don't take this as a personal attack. Just wanted a healthy debate. In my opinion, I think it makes sense that there is an oil feed in this location. I really don't think that the size is that critical. I'm hoping that my own testing will shed some light on this. Allan G. No offense taken, I understand that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim (me) so you have every right to question it as long it's based on sound reasoning. Unless you have some sort of lab I don't see what kind of "testing" would prove the point one way or the other. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

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