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Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
#514899
11/02/09 10:58 PM
11/02/09 10:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
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OP
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Well it looks like I'm going to bite the bullet and swap out the single 4 barrel for a dual 4 (maybe 6 pack) set up on a fairly mild 472 Hemi. I've been looking at the following: Stage V with Edelbrock performer carbs Stage V with Edelbrock thunderseries AVS carbs Stage V with 2 Holley 600 Vacuum secondary carbs (1850s) 1:1 linkage or progressive Vanke-ized Arruza Chrysler Marine intake MP six pack intake. The criteria is that it fit under the hood and work with stock 69 Road Runner hood. Looks like there are air cleaners available for the slightly taller air manifold. I'm running a slightly larger than stock hydraulic cam (.499I/.530E, 230@.050 duration, 113 lobe seperation),10:1 compression and stock aluminum MP heads. Any opinions?
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: torkrules]
#514901
11/03/09 12:33 AM
11/03/09 12:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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You'll have some choices to make because pretty much any of those combos will work with the right air cleaner setup. Andy's suggestion is valid, here's mine. The questions I'd ask are: 1. What's your budget? Some will definately cost you more than others. 2. What are your priorities: Performance, milage, appearances, etc? Personally I like conservative/stock dual 4 setup, not a Marine intake but rather a stock Mopar Performance reproduction with clone Street Hemi AFB (Edlebrocks with vintage lids to allow stock air cleaners to work) no other mods needed. Here's why: A. If you run a stock dual quad setup you'll find that all of the parts are available off the shelf to make it bolt right on with no special fabrication required B. Your engine combo is mild, while probably not the absalute penicle of horse power, a stock setup would give you 95% of any of the other combos you listed, if not best them in a mildly cammed combo. C. You can run either a stock automatic choke or an electric choke, a nice thing to have if you drive in cooler weather. D. Fuel economy will be on par with a single 4 if you keep your foot out of the secondaries. E. Stock Hemi parts nearly always bring better resale down the road should you sell. F. Overall cost (100% complete air cleaner to intake) should be very competitive if not the lowest price of all. 
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#514904
11/03/09 01:40 AM
11/03/09 01:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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i run the stage V with 2 edelbrock thunders. i wanted a (basically) stock look, but wanted the advantage of the stage V intake. my fuel lines are built to look like originals, (from FHO). i used a set of repop throttle linkage brackets, and have 3 or 4 hours into modifying them to fit. i then have the edelbrock chrysler adaptors for the throttle linkage.
i got the carb to carb linkage from ben snobar, (i think FHO has them), that has a longer middle threaded rod, so again looks very stock.
in the end, the only thing i don't like now is my air cleaner, fiberglass with a rough texture. there is at least one very original looking metal air filter out there, but it is in the $800 range, OUCH!
if anyone is interested i'll get some close ups of both sides.
i don't really like the linkage setups that anyone sells, i'm really happy with mine.
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: AndyF]
#514905
11/03/09 07:03 AM
11/03/09 07:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
OP
I'm neurotic
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OP
I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
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Quote:
I'd probably go with this setup if it was my car but do some research. You'll need to come up with the linkage, air cleaner, fuel lines, etc. for each option. Some combinations are avaiable off the shelf while others will require some fabrication. Maybe talk to someone like Tim at FHO. He does a lot of Hemi combinations and can tell you what works and what doesn't.
Yes, Tim has pretty much everything right down to the air cleaner base, lid, fuel lines, linkage, brackets, etc. Since I know Tim works out all of the details, I'll probably take that route. Plus he's more or less local. Two things make me leery:
I know beans about carter/edelbrock carbs (I guess I could force myself to learn)
And the 1:1 linkage makes me nervous (I thought a progressive would work better. I tried this in the eighties on a small block and was a dismal failure. Maybe a large cube Hemi can handle this better)
Thanks for the responses everyone
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: AndyF]
#514909
11/03/09 11:45 AM
11/03/09 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,339
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,339
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Quote:
With a single plane intake like the Stage V I'm pretty sure you'll want a 1:1 linkage. Best bet is to probably go small with the carbs. Maybe a pair of 500 cfm Edelbrock carbs for street use.
He would have to run 1:1 on the stage V intake because of the design , it's 2 single plane intakes with a smallish passage running between the 2 plenums. I can't see it running well and probably burning up the front half of the engine if it even runs at all.
The Stage V is said to be worth 50HP over the stock hemi intake .
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: Hemi_Ram]
#514911
11/03/09 12:57 PM
11/03/09 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
The Stage V is said to be worth 50HP over the stock hemi intake .
POSSIBLY, but only if the rest of the combo is built to match it.
Some of the above mentioned linkage and air cleaner issues are why I reccomend the setup I did. Also, for all around drivabillity and fuel economy I prefer progressive linkage carbs.
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: torkrules]
#514912
11/03/09 05:52 PM
11/03/09 05:52 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,500
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
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I Live Here
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
Stage V with Edelbrock performer carbs
Stage V with Edelbrock thunderseries AVS carbs
Stage V with 2 Holley 600 Vacuum secondary carbs (1850s)
The criteria is that it fit under the hood and work with stock 69 Road Runner hood.
How about the other criteria that they are big enough to support the cubes? 600 vac secondary carbs are not even close for 472 cubes. I ran two modded 750 eddy's on my +0.030 426 and they were not enough. I would go with the newer 800 eddy's, or two 750 holley double pumpers. If you think vacuum carbs are the solution to actually having to tune them, your looking at it wrong and will create a bad running engine. Also remember eddy carbs do not flow what they are rated...I was told that right on there tech line when I kept asking why my engine wasn't climbing rpm like it should back with their two 750's on it....The other area they are weak in is the fuel shot. Its tough to get their carbs to put enough fuel shot into a hemi to get a good launch.
You would be better off all the way around with an M1 dual plane and a quick fuel 1050 anuular boostered double pumper. We have a 472 Hemi down at the shop right now with a QF 950 DP on it in a 70 Charger street car, and its close, but the bigger breathing 1050 with annular would be better. In the last month, the car spit out no less than three (3) 8-3/4 posi units and one drive shaft....And its an almost stock street car with a mild 472.
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: Dragula]
#514914
11/03/09 07:15 PM
11/03/09 07:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
OP
I'm neurotic
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OP
I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Quote:
Stage V with Edelbrock performer carbs
Stage V with Edelbrock thunderseries AVS carbs
Stage V with 2 Holley 600 Vacuum secondary carbs (1850s)
The criteria is that it fit under the hood and work with stock 69 Road Runner hood.
How about the other criteria that they are big enough to support the cubes? 600 vac secondary carbs are not even close for 472 cubes. I ran two modded 750 eddy's on my +0.030 426 and they were not enough. I would go with the newer 800 eddy's, or two 750 holley double pumpers. If you think vacuum carbs are the solution to actually having to tune them, your looking at it wrong and will create a bad running engine. Also remember eddy carbs do not flow what they are rated...I was told that right on there tech line when I kept asking why my engine wasn't climbing rpm like it should back with their two 750's on it....The other area they are weak in is the fuel shot. Its tough to get their carbs to put enough fuel shot into a hemi to get a good launch.
You would be better off all the way around with an M1 dual plane and a quick fuel 1050 anuular boostered double pumper. We have a 472 Hemi down at the shop right now with a QF 950 DP on it in a 70 Charger street car, and its close, but the bigger breathing 1050 with annular would be better. In the last month, the car spit out no less than three (3) 8-3/4 posi units and one drive shaft....And its an almost stock street car with a mild 472.
I have no way to compare the M1 dual plane vs the stock/stage V set up. The M1 I'm running right now has a single 750DP Demon on it. I got it tuned pretty good and runs great BUT I do have some fuel distribution problems as can be seen by the plugs (some rich some lean, some fed by the same intake level with different colours) as everyone said it would. I'm not looking to break any speed/horsepower records. Just looking for a nice stock looking set up that has good distribution, runs clean, and is trouble free (  ). This thing will never see the high side of 5000 as it is strictly street driven. My biggest concern with eddy carbs is getting enough pump shot so that there are no flat spots. I've heard a lot of people complain about that. The accelerator circuit is not as tunable as the Holleys (shooters, and assortment of cams clears up almost every flat spot).
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#514915
11/03/09 08:23 PM
11/03/09 08:23 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,500
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
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I Live Here
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
John go back under your rock, you weren't a mind reader yesterday and you sure aren't one today.
Dragula, your conclusions are generalizations, the only way to know what combo is best is to test it with all of the same controls in place. I stand by what I said for the reasons I posted. 100% stock dual 4 progressive linkage equipped Stret Hemi carbs will EASILY feed a mildly cammed 472 Hemi if jetted and set up properly, in fact I have several customers who run them on 528 Hemi's with EXCELLENT results. Are they the end all to maximum power? No they are not (as I already stated above) but they will get you most of the way there while still offering excellent all around drivability and fuel economy in doing so.
Two 500cfm two barrel holley carbs will get you excellent results as well, but nobody runs those....From what it sounds like, he is looking for a pretty hassel free setup that works, and dual 4 barrels with vacuum secondaries on a stroked hemi isn't it. Two stock out of the box eddy carbs isn't it either.
I also stand by my recomendation of a single 4 barrel holley type carb from a custom carb shop in the 950-1050 range. I have run a few set-ups on hemi's from single 4's to blown with dual 4's and efi, and I may be vague, but I don't like an engine that stumbles when I mash the loud pedel, nor one that won't climb rpm. None of the carbs mentioned will provide a good out of the box tune for a hemi. The one I mentioned will. Set the float level and fuel pressure, and be done with it. It will run like you stole it.
Call eddy carbs and ask them what they really flow if you think I am pulling your leg. Had issues with them more than once. The set-ups on many of the eddy carbed dual quad hemi's is a closely gaurded secret by some and the switch to a pair of holley type carbs or single holley carb usually gets a "why didn't I do that sooner" from the owners. Both in drivability and performance, just not fuel mileage. Been there done that. I am an efi guy now, but a really well tuned custom holley carb still makes me smile. Do what you want with my generalizations, but I have spent enough time running hemi's down the track and the road to know a thing or two. Nobody likes an engine that has a poor performing carb on it. Don't goof around with out of the box carbs jetted and calibrated for a small block chevy, it will just frustrate you more when you spend that kind of money. Go to a carb shop like Quick Fuel or one of the others and get what you need. Or, send yours in. I did one last year and it was dead on right out of the box and worth every penny.
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: Dragula]
#514916
11/03/09 08:42 PM
11/03/09 08:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
OP
I'm neurotic
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OP
I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
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Quote:
Quote:
John go back under your rock, you weren't a mind reader yesterday and you sure aren't one today.
Dragula, your conclusions are generalizations, the only way to know what combo is best is to test it with all of the same controls in place. I stand by what I said for the reasons I posted. 100% stock dual 4 progressive linkage equipped Stret Hemi carbs will EASILY feed a mildly cammed 472 Hemi if jetted and set up properly, in fact I have several customers who run them on 528 Hemi's with EXCELLENT results. Are they the end all to maximum power? No they are not (as I already stated above) but they will get you most of the way there while still offering excellent all around drivability and fuel economy in doing so.
Two 500cfm two barrel holley carbs will get you excellent results as well, but nobody runs those....From what it sounds like, he is looking for a pretty hassel free setup that works, and dual 4 barrels with vacuum secondaries on a stroked hemi isn't it. Two stock out of the box eddy carbs isn't it either.
I also stand by my recomendation of a single 4 barrel holley type carb from a custom carb shop in the 950-1050 range. I have run a few set-ups on hemi's from single 4's to blown with dual 4's and efi, and I may be vague, but I don't like an engine that stumbles when I mash the loud pedel, nor one that won't climb rpm. None of the carbs mentioned will provide a good out of the box tune for a hemi. The one I mentioned will. Set the float level and fuel pressure, and be done with it. It will run like you stole it.
Call eddy carbs and ask them what they really flow if you think I am pulling your leg. Had issues with them more than once. The set-ups on many of the eddy carbed dual quad hemi's is a closely gaurded secret by some and the switch to a pair of holley type carbs or single holley carb usually gets a "why didn't I do that sooner" from the owners. Both in drivability and performance, just not fuel mileage. Been there done that. I am an efi guy now, but a really well tuned custom holley carb still makes me smile. Do what you want with my generalizations, but I have spent enough time running hemi's down the track and the road to know a thing or two. Nobody likes an engine that has a poor performing carb on it. Don't goof around with out of the box carbs jetted and calibrated for a small block chevy, it will just frustrate you more when you spend that kind of money. Go to a carb shop like Quick Fuel or one of the others and get what you need. Or, send yours in. I did one last year and it was dead on right out of the box and worth every penny.
Did you do anything to get around the fuel distribution problems with the M1 dual plane? What about the 6 pak deal?
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: torkrules]
#514917
11/03/09 08:52 PM
11/03/09 08:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
From what it sounds like, he is looking for a pretty hassel free setup that works, and dual 4 barrels with vacuum secondaries on a stroked hemi isn't it. Two stock out of the box eddy carbs isn't it either.
I'm sorry but this is where you and I disagree.......Anyway, it's all good, opinions may vary, carry on
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Re: Hemi intake/carb choices-Stage V or other
[Re: torkrules]
#514918
11/03/09 09:10 PM
11/03/09 09:10 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,500
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,500
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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[quote
Did you do anything to get around the fuel distribution problems with the M1 dual plane? What about the 6 pak deal?
No. We left the crappy distribution as it was. The owner/engine builder is kind of a minimulist when it comes to building engines for the street. It still broke three rear ends and a drive shaft. If we pull it this winter, we will look to do a mild clean up on the intake, but nothing special. We will try some spacers under it next year to see if that helps as well, but its a tight fit under the hood, so a super sucker is out of the question. The engine is pretty amazing because of all the low end torque. Most don't think of hemis as torque monsters, but depending on the cam and such, they can give a big 500 wedge a run for the money as far as street cars go. You would be hard pressed to tell this engine from a stock hemi.
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