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Ring & Pinion pattern. I'm stumped. Measured it.
#513944
11/02/09 02:16 AM
11/02/09 02:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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17 attempts and counting... Currently at: .0195" shim behind driver side carrier bearing .098" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing .060" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup .076" shim between the pinion and small bearing Backlash is at .009" Pinion free spin torque is about 3 inch pounds w/o seal. I'll be removing a few .001's from the preload shim pack to bring that up. These are new Strange gears and Timken bearings. It looks to me like it might need some more pinion shim to bring the pinion closer to the axles. What says the hive mind? How much of what? Drive side Coast side
Last edited by 67Charger; 11/09/09 12:44 AM.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 67Charger]
#513945
11/02/09 08:18 AM
11/02/09 08:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
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Are you using a case spreader? Try moving the carrier .003 closer to the pinion. Where its at right now ain`t that bad.  A perfect pattern is`nt easy to get 
70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#513946
11/02/09 09:42 AM
11/02/09 09:42 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner
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Trophy Winner
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
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the pinion is to close to the carrier needs to be moved out. remove pinion shim.
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: bigtimeauto]
#513948
11/02/09 09:49 AM
11/02/09 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
68roadrunner
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
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Quote:
the pinion is to close to the carrier needs to be moved out. remove pinion shim.
 move the pinion away from carrier, and you will see the drive and coast marks start to move across from each other.
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#513949
11/02/09 10:43 AM
11/02/09 10:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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Quote:
Are you using a case spreader?
Try moving the carrier .003 closer to the pinion.
Where its at right now ain`t that bad.
A perfect pattern is`nt easy to get
The previous setup attempt was with the carrier shimmed .006 closer to the pinion, which gave me .004 backlash and about the same pattern. I'm going to pull some pinion shim and try gain... I kept moving the pinion deeper when I was getting marks on the drive toe and coast heel. My backlash was off too, so I never saw a perfect pattern, but the marks did swap sides to drive - center, coast - toe. I guess I passed it.
I don't have a case spreader, but I have about .010" more shim in there than I can force the carrier in by hand with. I use a rubber mallet to drive it in, and it has some decent drag to it when free-spinning.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 67Charger]
#513950
11/02/09 02:52 PM
11/02/09 02:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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-.005" pinion shim helped some, but not enough. I would venture to say about .010" more out and I'd be closer.
I'll try it and post it up after work.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#513953
11/02/09 11:03 PM
11/02/09 11:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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Quote:
Quote:
17 attempts and counting...
Currently at:
.0195" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.098" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.060" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.076" shim between the pinion and small bearing
Backlash is at .009"
Pinion free spin torque is about 3 inch pounds w/o seal. I'll be removing a few .001's from the preload shim pack to bring that up. These are new Strange gears and Timken bearings.
It looks to me like it might need some more pinion shim to bring the pinion closer to the axles. What says the hive mind? How much of what?
Drive side
Coast side
All that shim on one side is telling you dont have enough shim under the inner pinion bearing..
You need to move the pinion out toward the ring gear..
Add about .020 or so under the inner pinion bearing and watch how it falls together..
Once you move the pinion out some the back lash will setup much better..
Also its hard to see a good pattern cause there isnt much load on the gears. Have a friend hold a wrench on a ring gear bolt and you turn the pinion with the breaker bar. Tell him to try and stop you from moving the gears...
The pattern will look much better.
I must be misunderstanding what you're saying... I already have the carrier shifted way to the driver's side (away from the pinion). If I add more pinion shim, it will decrease my backlash and require even more offset to get my backlash back.
Pulling pinion shim out and moving the pinion away from the axles seems to be bringing the pattern back. I'm going to go out and take another .010" out of the pinion and see what happens.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 67Charger]
#513954
11/02/09 11:34 PM
11/02/09 11:34 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner
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Trophy Winner
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
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It doesn't matter how much carrier shims you use per side. You need to keep the backlash at its setting as you change the pinion shim. The only thing that matters is the pattern.
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#513956
11/03/09 12:53 AM
11/03/09 12:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,583
Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,583
Fulton County, PA
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Pulling the pinion out .010" should get it close. BTW, I've always been able to get a nice pattern with Strange gears, either US Gear or the Motives. Not always that way with the off brand stuff.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: CMcAllister]
#513957
11/03/09 01:18 AM
11/03/09 01:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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Attempt 18 - Back pinion out .005". Resulted in slightly improved pattern and slightly more backlash. Needs more in this direction. No pics. Attempt 19 - Back pinion out .010. Resulted in backlash increasing to .017" Drive  Coast  Attempt 20 - Swap carrier shims by .015 to move carrier in towards pinion. Resulted in backlash reducing to .004". Too far  Drive  Coast 
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 67Charger]
#513958
11/03/09 02:01 AM
11/03/09 02:01 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,198
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,198
Bend,OR USA
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Don't we love setting up Dana spicer rear ends, especially the Dana 60  Do you have a set of set up bearings? If not get some  I remember paying Bob Lambeck $75.00 to set the gears up in my Dana for the four speed Hemi Cuda, best money ever spent I charge $150.00 now and it still takes 8 hrs+ to do one usually 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: 67Charger]
#513959
11/03/09 02:03 AM
11/03/09 02:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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What do you think about the backlash? Take care of it with the carrier, or move the pinion out a bit? .004 seems a bit tight. Should I shoot for the usual .008 - .012?
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#513960
11/03/09 02:05 AM
11/03/09 02:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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Quote:
Don't we love setting up Dana spicer rear ends, especially the Dana 60 Do you have a set of set up bearings? If not get some I remember paying Bob Lambeck $75.00 to set the gears up in my Dana for the four speed Hemi Cuda, best money ever spent I charge $150.00 now and it still takes 8 hrs+ to do one usually
I was just over ar Bob's shop a few hours ago... He's rebuilding the 427 for the '69 Stingray I'm restoring for my Mom.
No, I don't have setup beaings. Just a 40 ton press and a splitter.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE!
[Re: Quicksilver440]
#513963
11/03/09 02:24 AM
11/03/09 02:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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I'm getting pretty fast... About 15 minutes to remove the carrier, swap shims, reinstall and check. 10 minutes to pull the pinion, reset shims and reinstal. lI'm close, but I'm torn whether to move the carrier or back the pinion out. I think I should move the carrier about .005 away from the pinion to get my backlash back up. .004 lash seems too tight, but the pattern is starting to look good.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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