Quote:

---

I need a small block one for a 340 build.

---

Quote:

---

Muscle Motors in Lansing Michigan comes to mind.

---

Quote:

---

I think Ryan J said he was going to supply one for my 501 small block motor.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I think Ryan J said he was going to supply one for my 501 small block motor.

---

Knowing what i know now, no way in the world i would ever build a small block mopar motor from scratch and not use a gear drive setup especially if it was going to be raced at all.

Every timing chain i have ever seen stretches, and the problem is inherantly worse on small chryslers than pretty much anything else

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I think Ryan J said he was going to supply one for my 501 small block motor.

---

Knowing what i know now, no way in the world i would ever build a small block mopar motor from scratch and not use a gear drive setup especially if it was going to be raced at all.

Every timing chain i have ever seen stretches, and the problem is inherantly worse on small chryslers than pretty much anything else

---

That's good reason to put a $30 Melling timing tensioner on it.....

The "problem being inherent to SB Chryslers" is because of the long Cam to crank CL.

Milodon gear drives have gone up in price & are currently in the $370 range. Only time I really use them is on a 50 MM roller cam block.

Good Billet 9 keyway chain & tensioner setup is about $120... no machine work to block..... Gear Drive $370 + machining cost (drill/tap hole in block & on some applications must modify gear drive thrust plate)

Billet chain/tensioner setup will give you within 1/2 degree accurate cam timing for 1/3 cost. Most people just use whatever is in their budget....

---

Quote:

---

i don't usually use/sell the rollmaster stuff anymore. we use/sell the Pro-Gear timing sets with the Rolon chain and billet upper and lower gears. we see much less stretch than we saw with the rollmaster units. for smallblocks, the tensioner absolutely works. if it's a band-aid, it's a darn good one. besides that, i can't stand the whine of a gear drive on a street car.

---

Quote:

---

Don, no offense but between DRAM & I, I think we've worked on a few more SB Mopars than you have W/ a chain.... Once a tensioner is installed W/ a GOOD chain, you will see no slop, no matter how much use. I run them on our dirt track cars that sit @ 7000-7600 all night long, & there is no slop after years of use. In fact one motor has same chain/tensioner on it for last 4 years......

Your buddy needs to put a good chain & tensioner on... there will be no slop, street car/drag car/dirt car etc.

If he runs a cast gear chain W/ no tensioner it WILL stretch, & it will stretch fairly quickly. I don't disagree that his did stretch, I'm just saying if he had bought & used proper parts the first time it would'nt have happened.

The Milodon gear drives for SB Chrysler do not whine or make any noise, if they did, I'd never have one on one of my cars, I can't stand that racket.

I do have a Milodon GD on my 394 Turbo motor, but again, it is a 50MM Roller cam motor. If it was Babbit bearing I'd have a billet chain & tensioner on it. Much better places to spend your $ on than a GD IMO. Just my experiences having built/torn down quite few SB motors with both drives & chains.... If I thought they were so much better than a chain/tensioner, I'd try to talk everyone into one.... instead I usually end up trying to talk them out of it.

---

I admit you have built more motors than me...lol

I have had 3 stretched chains in my motors over the years, and i dont use cheap anything.Cloyes, JP, and i forget the other one.This in a less than 10 year period of not racing " all the time" by any means.

I can see why a dirt track car wouldnt be as hard on chains, they arent using things like trans brakes and accelerating from off idle to 7000 rpms in an instant hardly ever,doing burnouts where the motor isnt under load and accelerates extremely rapidly, way different usages. You of all people should know that is a terrible analogy..lol Having a car moving at 5000 rpm's and accelerating to 8000 rpm's isnt near as hard on anything except possibly valvetrain items.

Chuck at Best Machine suggested a Gear drive a long time ago, and i was hard headed and didnt go that way.Wish i had, if for some reason i still have my car next year it will withou a doubt get one.

Correct me if i am wrong but doesnt a timing chain stretching have no bearing whatsoever from a tensioner? Doesnt a tensioner just " take up he slack" or do i missunderstand its usage ?In other words the chain still stretches exactly the same, tensioner or not, just that its symptoms are masked/tensioned?

I know you work on motors, but i have almost 20 years of engineering experience( made a living at it) so i kinda know how stuff works..lol

Building 10,000 motors has nothing to do with comparing the merits of a chain and a gear

Quote:

---

i have to agree with b3422w5 on the chain stretching reguardless whether it has a tensioner or not. i don't have a degree in anything, i'm just a dumb truck driver but common sense tells me as the chain stretches the timing still would fall back reguardless if there's a tensioner in there to take up the slack or not. DONE

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

i have to agree with b3422w5 on the chain stretching reguardless whether it has a tensioner or not. i don't have a degree in anything, i'm just a dumb truck driver but common sense tells me as the chain stretches the timing still would fall back reguardless if there's a tensioner in there to take up the slack or not. DONE

---

As i said earlier, the tensioner is just a band aid. It takes up the slack of the chain as it stretches. It doesnt " fix" anything.Is it better than not having it sure. Will the chain still stretch the exact same amount, sure it will.

Its like a car door on a big 2 door that creaks from being open and shut so many times. It needs new hinges put on it, but spraying grease on it will make it seem fine for a long time...but the wear is already there.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

i have to agree with b3422w5 on the chain stretching reguardless whether it has a tensioner or not. i don't have a degree in anything, i'm just a dumb truck driver but common sense tells me as the chain stretches the timing still would fall back reguardless if there's a tensioner in there to take up the slack or not. DONE

---

As i said earlier, the tensioner is just a band aid. It takes up the slack of the chain as it stretches. It doesnt " fix" anything.Is it better than not having it sure. Will the chain still stretch the exact same amount, sure it will.

Its like a car door on a big 2 door that creaks from being open and shut so many times. It needs new hinges put on it, but spraying grease on it will make it seem fine for a long time...but the wear is already there.

---

You say you are an Engineer and you cannot understand how having a good quality chain & gears OR a tensioner will help minimize or stop timing cain stretch?

THINK about what is happening "dynamically" in a running engine to these parts.

THINK about how a good quality part might do compared to some of the other junk out there.

What about this car door hinges that are worn out? What if they were made out of better materials? What if you used some HD rubber or polyurethane cushions to support and keep the door snug while the car is going down the road and when you are shuting the door. What if you used two striker pins instead of one and/or took some weight out of the door assymbly??

---

I hear ya Ron. yes, what if, what if, what if. Yes i have an engineering background


Yes i defer to how a car door is made to the engineers at Ford,GM, etc. They are way smarter than me. I notice that the bigger the door, the sooner it sags. Like for instance on Monte Carlo's.I am sure these engineers have devoted countless manhours to just this issue.
Yes, i am sure they could make them better, why they dont, i havent a clue.

I know the Milidon gear drive would be more precise and last longer than a timing chain. And be more accurate the whole time.I have never, o my knowledge used a cheap chain, i have been dissapointed in the performance of several different ones, and come to the truthfull conclusion they all stretch, some maybe sooner than others, but they all do.
I initally said in the whole scheme of things( building a 10-15 grand motor) a gear drive isnt that much extra money when you look at it.
I have had several such motors built professionally, and have never used a gear drive.( Perhaps i am hard headed and a slow learner) If i was to do it again, i definately would though, as i have come to consider it a nice upgrade. I have went through a few chains, and have tried several different models. I am not just saying that ,i indeed have.Its just my opinion based on personal experience over the years of GOOD chains stretching, an excellent motor builder suggesting going to a nice gear drive setup, and that is about it.
I just suggested you might consider going to one, that said, its just my opinion, nothing more or less.

Quote:

---

I am happy with agreeing to disagree


Here is what Mopar says about its timing chain tensioner

:B. Timing Chain Tensioner
This Timing Chain Tensioner stabilizes cam timing by reducing timing chain slack. Use in place of thrust plate P5249637.
P5007709 Timing Chain Tensioner (Small Block and 3.9L, 5.2L, 5.9L Truck Magnum/Jeep® Engines)



I read that as it being a bandaid. It REDUCES timing chain slack. In other words, a chain will over time aquire slack in it. If you install this tensioner, it will reduce this slack.

So it masks/ is a bandaid, of the design of a timing chain on a car.It makes the problem less of an issue, than it would be without it.



A gear drive doesnt need a tensioner, it literally doesnt wear out or stretch.


But that is just how i read it, your results may vary

---

It's a friendly diagreement The issue with the SB mopar as stated is a distance issue (poor design)In some respects the tensioner acts like an idler gear but is not that positive contact that the gear provides.If you want to scare your self lock the crank in place and rotate the cam gear back and forth and see the movement in dregrees that even a gear drive has.They all work well when they are in rotation with all the slack drawn.Don't get me started on Pete Jackson gear drives.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I am happy with agreeing to disagree


Here is what Mopar says about its timing chain tensioner

:B. Timing Chain Tensioner
This Timing Chain Tensioner stabilizes cam timing by reducing timing chain slack. Use in place of thrust plate P5249637.
P5007709 Timing Chain Tensioner (Small Block and 3.9L, 5.2L, 5.9L Truck Magnum/Jeep® Engines)



I read that as it being a bandaid. It REDUCES timing chain slack. In other words, a chain will over time aquire slack in it. If you install this tensioner, it will reduce this slack.

So it masks/ is a bandaid, of the design of a timing chain on a car.It makes the problem less of an issue, than it would be without it.



A gear drive doesnt need a tensioner, it literally doesnt wear out or stretch.


But that is just how i read it, your results may vary

---

It's a friendly diagreement The issue with the SB mopar as stated is a distance issue (poor design)In some respects the tensioner acts like an idler gear but is not that positive contact that the gear provides.If you want to scare your self lock the crank in place and rotate the cam gear back and forth and see the movement in dregrees that even a gear drive has.They all work well when they are in rotation with all the slack drawn.Don't get me started on Pete Jackson gear drives.

---

OK my turn
Ditch both chain and gear drive (harmonics) and get a belt drive. Matt

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I am happy with agreeing to disagree


Here is what Mopar says about its timing chain tensioner

:B. Timing Chain Tensioner
This Timing Chain Tensioner stabilizes cam timing by reducing timing chain slack. Use in place of thrust plate P5249637.
P5007709 Timing Chain Tensioner (Small Block and 3.9L, 5.2L, 5.9L Truck Magnum/Jeep® Engines)



I read that as it being a bandaid. It REDUCES timing chain slack. In other words, a chain will over time aquire slack in it. If you install this tensioner, it will reduce this slack.

So it masks/ is a bandaid, of the design of a timing chain on a car.It makes the problem less of an issue, than it would be without it.



A gear drive doesnt need a tensioner, it literally doesnt wear out or stretch.


But that is just how i read it, your results may vary

---

It's a friendly diagreement The issue with the SB mopar as stated is a distance issue (poor design)In some respects the tensioner acts like an idler gear but is not that positive contact that the gear provides.If you want to scare your self lock the crank in place and rotate the cam gear back and forth and see the movement in dregrees that even a gear drive has.They all work well when they are in rotation with all the slack drawn.Don't get me started on Pete Jackson gear drives.

---

OK my turn
Ditch both chain and gear drive (harmonics) and get a belt drive. Matt

---

now thats the ticket right there if your going to spend money mite as well go for broke

Quote:

---

Don, no offense but between DRAM & I, I think we've worked on a few more SB Mopars than you have W/ a chain.... Once a tensioner is installed W/ a GOOD chain, you will see no slop, no matter how much use. I run them on our dirt track cars that sit @ 7000-7600 all night long, & there is no slop after years of use. In fact one motor has same chain/tensioner on it for last 4 years......

Your buddy needs to put a good chain & tensioner on... there will be no slop, street car/drag car/dirt car etc.

If he runs a cast gear chain W/ no tensioner it WILL stretch, & it will stretch fairly quickly. I don't disagree that his did stretch, I'm just saying if he had bought & used proper parts the first time it would'nt have happened.

The Milodon gear drives for SB Chrysler do not whine or make any noise, if they did, I'd never have one on one of my cars, I can't stand that racket.

I do have a Milodon GD on my 394 Turbo motor, but again, it is a 50MM Roller cam motor. If it was Babbit bearing I'd have a billet chain & tensioner on it. Much better places to spend your $ on than a GD IMO. Just my experiences having built/torn down quite few SB motors with both drives & chains.... If I thought they were so much better than a chain/tensioner, I'd try to talk everyone into one.... instead I usually end up trying to talk them out of it.

---

Quote:

---

Don,
you stated that you never used a cheap timing set, yet you list the names of the ones you used and you used exactly that, cheap timing sets.
the purpose of a timing chain or a gear drive is exactly the same, to control the camshaft timing. put on a quality chain with a tensioner and it does exactly that. there's no mystery to it and it costs less than half of a gear drive. you can call it a band-aid, rite-aid, farm-aid, or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that it absolutely works.
can you guess which people most auto mechanics curse and complain about the most? i wonder why.
have a great day

---

Hey Dan,,,,


IM A FARMER!!! LOL

I agree with you and Ryan yet again... and Im no engineer, I just have countless hours behind a wrench, and have seen thousands of failed chain set, mostly cloyes, and OEM sets with cast gears, and or the flat gear multi link gear sets whitch should NEVER be used on anything but a manure spreader...