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Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s #47021
11/01/07 08:12 PM
11/01/07 08:12 PM
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Is there anyone that has performed comprehensive side by side testing of these replacement front suspension kits?

My application is cruising and performance oriented driving both drag racing and road racing.

Car is 72 Road Runner RB engine with manual transmission.

Options I want are power steering rack, large sway bar, large 13 or 14" disc brakes for real street and road racing,

Lets see how these 3 kits stack up.........in these areas

Best road and racing brakes not just Drag racing stuff here.

Best performing in the area of power steering rack in a firm wheel feel.

Best performing in handeling for shocks w/ tunability and spring rates for street and road tracks.....

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47022
11/02/07 12:40 AM
11/02/07 12:40 AM
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I can tell you the knock on Magnum Force is that the parts don't always fit properly (I have no firsthand knowledge of this).

I know that the AlterK has been seriously abused by certain folks that I know and held up wel, been stable at speed (well above posted limits), and provided predictable handling (again, I have no firsthand knowledge of this).

I can't tell you a thing on the XV.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47023
11/02/07 02:39 AM
11/02/07 02:39 AM
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Quote:

Is there anyone that has performed comprehensive side by side testing of these replacement front suspension kits?




That would be very tough to do fairly. All three would have to be the same body style. The cars without the upgades would have to weigh the same. Same tires.

Quote:

My application is cruising and performance oriented driving both drag racing and road racing.







Sorry but there is no free lunch. There will be compromises between road race, drag race, and a soft street ride. Please read what Dick Guldstrand wrote about this that I have posted on my website here: "No Free Lunch" article by Dick Guldstrand

Car is 72 Road Runner RB engine with manual transmission.

Quote:


Options I want are power steering rack, large sway bar, large 13 or 14" disc brakes for real street and road racing,




Have you ever driven an old Mopar that's got a well thought out handling system with a power steering gear?


Quote:

Lets see how these 3 kits stack up.........in these areas

Best road and racing brakes not just Drag racing stuff here.




How much money do you have?

Best as in best ever, or best for you intended purposes and car capability, or best value??....

Best ever might be something like out of Brembo's custom shop. About $8K to $10K IIRC what RocketRide was talking about. Actually carbon fiber ceramic disks with some trick alloy calipers would be even better. And probably 3x more than $8K to $10K.


Spring Fling 33
April 13 & 14, 2019
Woodley Park, Van Nuys CA
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: autoxcuda] #47024
11/02/07 10:40 AM
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AutoX I agree the Best terminology is all measured from you point of reference.

To frame this into a better point of reference not looking for F1 type stuff where you have an open checkbook, using all the latest space age technology to save every gram or unsprung weight.

Dont care for the 70's car feel of it rolling like a boat into a corner doing regular driving in town not even under power.

Im figuring the AlterKation frame will do the best in the give and take dept plus free up some room for headers and turbo plumbing with the torsion bars being removed.

For the rear suspension I read a thread on bigblock dart that Reilly has a 3 link kit for the rear.

I would really like to stuff some 345/30ZR19's under there and with them leaf springs out of the way we gain alot of room in the wheel house out back.

Looks like Reilly also has a kit using the 14" SRT Dodge rotors with some Brembo/Viper 4 piston calipers on his AlterK coming soon.

Sinced this is not a road track only deal the pads have to work in cool street driving also and not fade much when using the brake on some road course work as well.

Ill have to figure how much the Viper T56 can be built up into for HP and TQ capabilities. Heard there is a TKO600 out there that can handle the 950HP range. Some more digging to go

So that is my story about "Best" since it means different things to different people I should have avoided that word. Sometimes Best isnt the most expensive part since it doesnt fit the criteria of the desired outcome.

Overall if this thing can run under its own power, Drive easily around town kids in tow to a cruise night or show without shaking out your eye teeth, raise a few eyebrows at a track event from the younger crowd that has no idea what a 4000# car can handle like and run a number that is shy of putting it into requiring a 25.1 cage for NHRA track by a second or so that would work

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47025
11/02/07 11:41 AM
11/02/07 11:41 AM
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So Cal
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1.06 T-bars
Stock RR/GTX rear springs
QA1 adjustable shocks
AndyF Brembo disk kit
AndyF or DocterDiff rear disk kit
Appropiate aluminum master per AndyF
Firm Feel tubular upper control arms
rubber LCA bushings
gusseted reinforced K-member- Firm Feel does this.
1 1/8 Firm Feel front sway bar
3/4 Firm Feel rear sway bar
US Car Tool subframe connectors
275/40/18 front tires
Firm Feel power steering
stock ratio pitman
1/16 toe in, 4 deg postive caster, 1.5 deg negative camber

XV strut tower brace would be great too, but I would hold off until you got your turbo plumbing setup. Also XV raditor support and inner fender brace will reduce cowl rattles and flex.

Will not feel like any old 4000 stock 71 B-body.
Will be super responsive at 30 mph and at 80 mph.
Will have great braking

That's keeping it simple, pretty stock looking, and some change still in you back pocket.

Since you are planning on a twin turbo 508 big block with all that plumbing the extra room would be a big plus and trick look of an Alterkion would be a "fit" for your project. I've seen them powdercoated in hammertone black/grey that looked real cool, gives it some contrast, but wasn't gawdy.

Alterkion would give you some great flexibilty with room and fitment. It has the level brakes as AndyF kits and good adjustable QA1 shocks as listed above. Just pick some agressive coil springs.


Spring Fling 33
April 13 & 14, 2019
Woodley Park, Van Nuys CA
www.cpwclub.com
500+ show cars, 200+ swap, manf. midways
Malibu Cruise, Cruise-In
Free Spectator Admission!
Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47026
11/02/07 01:29 PM
11/02/07 01:29 PM
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Hanover, Ontario, Canada
Moparmatty Offline
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For the ultimate T-56 Viper tranny: http://www.rsgear.com/transzilla.asp

For a 900hp capable TKO: http://www.modularmustangracing.com/prod_trans_drive.htm
(about halfway down the page) I have one.

For bolt on SB/BB TKO or T-56 bellhousings: http://www.quicktimeinc.com/products.html
Part number RM6074 is being dropped of at my place today (BB to TKO)

PHJ426, can you give me a link to the thread on the Viper caliper to Alterkation setup that Bill's working on? I had also heard this was going to be a reality but I'd like to do some more reading on it.


Matt Tebbutt
Ontario, Canada
Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: autoxcuda] #47027
11/02/07 01:31 PM
11/02/07 01:31 PM
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AutoX

If I was smart............sometimes Im not, I should follow your suspension build specs and just do the EFI conversion on the 508 with a TKO600 5 speed trans in the car.

Get the car sorted out and see how well I like that and figure out if I want to step it up to the next level with the twin turbos etc etc

Using your suggested suspension and brake package What kind of G's does your experience indicate what the 72 Runner would be capable of pulling on a closed track?

Thanks for the other links also.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: Moparmatty] #47028
11/02/07 01:35 PM
11/02/07 01:35 PM
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Matt

The information on the 14" SRT brake kit for the Alterkation was on bigblock Dart site in one of the threads Bill mentioned he was working on that brake package.

Im sure that would be the best deal for a handeling street car.

Thanks for the other links I was checking out the MMR TKO trans earlier today.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47029
11/02/07 02:00 PM
11/02/07 02:00 PM
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Spokane Washington
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I have driven cars with Alterkations and Magnum componants, so far no personal experience with XV's stuff.

So far I prefer what Alterkations has to offer, it's lightweight yet stout, never had a problem of any kind and the cars I drove with the AK front ends were driven HARD and FAST on various surfaces. One of the cars I drove had the Magnum Force parts and one of the A-arms broke (not while I was driving it) causing major sheet metal damage to the car. To me that was enough to avoid them all together.

I'm sure XV's stuff is as good as anything out there but is it better? Is any difference worth the difference in expense between them and Alterkation? I don't know.

As far as body reinforcements, US Cartools now offers a radiator support and inner fender bracing VERY similar to the XV parts at a substantial difference in cost, plus they make the contoured frame connectors that are all the rage right now, I'd look into what they offer before buying anything else.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: PHJ426] #47030
11/02/07 02:09 PM
11/02/07 02:09 PM
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I have no experience with the product, but from what I can tell the XV stage II looks like it uses Corvette C5 forged LCAs, knuckles and hubs. And you know that car is a stout performer.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47031
11/02/07 02:40 PM
11/02/07 02:40 PM
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Quote:

AutoX

If I was smart............sometimes Im not, I should follow your suspension build specs and just do the EFI conversion on the 508 with a TKO600 5 speed trans in the car.

Get the car sorted out and see how well I like that and figure out if I want to step it up to the next level with the twin turbos etc etc

Using your suggested suspension and brake package What kind of G's does your experience indicate what the 72 Runner would be capable of pulling on a closed track?

Thanks for the other links also.




More to it than just what the max spike on a G-meter.

Please read what Dick Guldstrand wrote about this that I have posted on my website here: "No Free Lunch" article by Dick Guldstrand

Tim Werner can keep up with Lotus and Vipers. Actually was hanging with a GT3 Porsche for a little bit. His setup has more aggressive T-bars 1.24 with higher wheel rate than yours (A-bodies have shorter T-bars). His car weighs less and has a 8 point? roll cage to tie everything together. Same brakes, FF UCA's, similar level shocks, rear leafs stock 340 size?? etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06N5gT-8eno

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post3849516


Spring Fling 33
April 13 & 14, 2019
Woodley Park, Van Nuys CA
www.cpwclub.com
500+ show cars, 200+ swap, manf. midways
Malibu Cruise, Cruise-In
Free Spectator Admission!
Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47032
11/02/07 05:45 PM
11/02/07 05:45 PM

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I never post about our Level II system here anymore. However, when I see it being lumped in with everything else, I feel a need to clarify that there are some significant differences. Again, it’s definitely not priced for everyone, but for big budget builds, where handling and/or road racing are the objective, there’s really no comparison.

I won't go into all the details, but I'm not aware of any of the other systems actually been on real road race courses - ours were tested day one on track. Just look at the car and driver video we recently posted, pics of our open track event last month, video from Mosport or get our DVD from when we were on Dream Car Garage, which shows how all our stuff was developed and tested and the tools we used – and has lots of track time. If you're a car guy and into hard core tech, you'll dig the DVD alot.

We've done and continue to do alot on track - road race track. Most of the people involved from the outset, come largely from road race backgrounds.

Major differences we have are:
- Our systems were developed for handling/road race from the outset
- Our system was developed as a complete dialed in package front and rear together from the outset
- All our stuff was track tested on road course and on street for handling and ride quality
- Most of our components are aluminum, front and rear
- Our aluminum K is mandrel bent
- We used a four post rig to dial in shock valving and spring rates (front and rear). Four post was so precise we could see differences in tire pressure. Same tool used by F1, IRL, NASCAR and OE special projects.
- Sway bars were sized for the application and optimized as well
- Geometry was optimized front and rear using OE level software (not mine but I was told it was over $1 million for the software), that can run simulated laps using multiple suspension geometries to optimize it – yes that was done before any prototype parts were made.
- Our racks are modern variable rate quick ratio, NOT Mustang II. You can find out why on your own.
- We developed chassis stiffening system to address relocating vehicle loads from factory locations. Chassis stiffening was developed using actual torsion tests.
- Our kits have adjustable bump steer, so can dial out all bump steer.
- Shocks are custom valved high pressure monotube, race quality pieces. Valving based upon actual testing and we have different shock valving for B and E body. We don’t use twin tube shocks.
- Our brakes were designed for the cars - not off the shelf pieces. Computer models were run to size the brake package to the vehicle for balanced braking under load. Pistons are sized in the calipers for our applications. The BMW that just won the series in Grand Am was using the same brakes as ours. Many road racers run these.
- Our rear suspension is a 3-link and adjustable w/ panhard bar. This is widely accepted as a very effective road race configuration that minimizes (or eliminates) any bind.

Our system cost is a bit more than the rest, but it was fully engineered by professionals that do work for the OE's and professional race teams in ALMS, F1, IRL, Grand Am, NASCAR, etc. They’ve even run cars at the 24 hours of LeMans. There is a reason ours is priced a bit higher.

I may be mistaken, but I believe ours was the only one originally designed for road racing / handling, as opposed to starting out as a drag race setup.

If you have the opportunity to see our setup in person, you can readily see differences in how it's been put together. We've had OE suspension engineers from Toyota, Ford, Honda and others comment how well our suspension was designed.

Autoweek just reviewed us after driving one of our cars:
"Ride and handling are transformed into those of a modern GT car, with precise steering, powerful braking, confident cornering and a firm yet compliant ride. Power delivery is instantaneous, with a basso exhaust snarl. Chrysler would do well to make this car the new '08 Dodge Challenger's benchmark."

Car and Driver: "the restomod handled fantastically"

Two weeks ago I was in a high speed cruise being followed by a Lamborghini Murcielago for quite a ways. At lunch afterwards the driver and his wife asked me what was under the car because he thought his car was either not working or he didn’t know how to drive. He told me he thought he would blow right past me when I wouldn’t be able to apex the large sweeper we were both running on. He couldn’t believe I was able to hold the same line he was.

The reality is that what we’ve done is beyond anything in the aftermarket – never mind Mopar specific, which was wildly behind other platforms on aftermarket suspension support.

I will not pick apart other people’s products, but I will tell you why ours is different. There are many details that are easily identified (if you are in the know) that jump out, and are the reasons they were never a viable or serious consideration for the level and type of cars we set out to build.

There’s a place for all these systems, but there are significant differences between what we’ve done and everything else. We’re also the only one’s flogging our stuff on track (road race). Not auto-cross, road race course. We’ll be doing another track event / driving school in the spring, see for yourself, get a ride in one of our cars.

Call our Level II Suspension expensive – it is! But there are some real reasons for the price of that setup and no one has the kind of engineering, testing or quality of components/materials in their product that we do. I won’t say the other stuff is good, bad or otherwise, but it’s definitely not using the quality of components we are, nor is it engineered or built in the same way.

Our Level II clearly isn’t for every budget, nor was it ever intended to be. Honestly, the only thing we really have in common with the other setups is they all replace the K’s.

If you are in the know with regard to modern (road race or performance) suspension technology and design, the differences are screaming at you just by looking at the different products, and the differences aren’t minor. Our setup is more akin to a full on road race setup, detuned for street use. Not a chance the others are.

With regard to our Level II, we never intended it to be, nor will it ever be the low cost solution. For whatever it’s worth I can say without any hesitation that we’ve done more engineering, more testing, used the best professional engineers (and tools) out there and have the highest quality, most modern components in our system. I also know our products were designed from the outset for handling and road race duty; before it suddenly became in style…














Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s #47033
11/02/07 08:05 PM
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PHJ426 Offline OP
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John - I had seen pictures of the Level II before but it was just the thumbnail in the products page on your site.

Clearly the XV Level II is head and shoulders above the rest.

I would really like to use your Level II system on my next project.

Does your Level II rear suspension fit on a new Dana S60 housing?

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: PHJ426] #47034
11/02/07 09:15 PM
11/02/07 09:15 PM
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demon440 Offline
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What is the weight of the front end set-up?
Looks to be very heavy for aluminum pieces.
Here is what I bought.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: demon440] #47035
11/02/07 09:18 PM
11/02/07 09:18 PM
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Quote:

What is the weight of the front end set-up?
Looks to be very heavy for aluminum pieces.
Here is what I bought.




Demon440 what brand of front end is that?

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: Blakcharger440] #47036
11/02/07 09:43 PM
11/02/07 09:43 PM
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AlterKtion front end.

3925145-lite.jpg (747 downloads)
Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end #47037
11/02/07 09:45 PM
11/02/07 09:45 PM
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Quote:

I never post about our Level II system here anymore. However, when I see it being lumped in with everything else, I feel a need to clarify that there are some significant differences.




You know, it is pretty sad condition of the state of the mopar hobby when the best engineered suspension provider for mopars doesn't feel like posting about their products here any more. Heck, for that matter, I don't see Bill Reilly here much either.


FWIW, I regularly see posts here asking "how can I modernize my mopars handling" with people thinking the only way to get there is with coil overs and rack and pinion, while in most cases the application of said hardware is usually never more than some fun driving to shows or drag strips. Some food for thought regarding torsion bars; after 30 years, Chevy, Ford, even Toyota, have adopted torsion bar suspension to their most popular light truck lines for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is performance. Something else to consider, 30 year old trans am series race cars can still lap a track faster than many modern "G machines" using recirculating ball steering boxes, torsion bars, leaf springs and 15" tires. You don't always need the latest wiz-bang products to improve road holding capabilities and Steve's formula, as well as the XV level 1 kit, can provide performance capabilities beyond the driving abilities of a vast majority of drivers.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: TC@HP2] #47038
11/02/07 10:52 PM
11/02/07 10:52 PM
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Devil Offline
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Don't forget that the alterktion front ends are for off road use only and not to be used in daily driver/cruiser applications.

I believe that MagnumForce was the same way, but I can't find the information on that currently.

The only system I've seen that has been rated for daily driver/cruising usage is the XV system.

Ryan

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end [Re: Devil] #47039
11/02/07 10:57 PM
11/02/07 10:57 PM
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On the XV Level II I like the way the rack ties into the steering knuckle its not hanging down in the weeds with a 2" spacer between it and the tie rod end.

Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s [Re: PHJ426] #47040
11/03/07 09:05 AM
11/03/07 09:05 AM

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Quote:

John - I had seen pictures of the Level II before but it was just the thumbnail in the products page on your site.

Does your Level II rear suspension fit on a new Dana S60 housing?




There are detailed shots if you click the link for more pics under the product. However, I should update them.

We've fit several different versions of the Dana's. Only one bracket didn't fit was the Moser as they made quite a few changes to the housing. I am pretty sure Strange has been done, but would need to confirm.

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