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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: CJK440]
#460300
09/06/09 10:57 AM
09/06/09 10:57 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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I will probably just go with the cometics again. This time I will not use any copper spray. Maybe just some Holymar (sp) or some "Rightstuff" around the water passages between the layers even. I pretty sure my man picked me up a set of Custom Cometics in the $140-$150 range so...that will be just as cheap as the Felpro's.. On a side note, I consider Big Block Chryslers pretty good at sealing if the decks are nice and square. I have run those old $30 a set cheapo head gaskets that end with a PT part# in applications guys would cringe at....And not only that reused them twice each time before I would flop them in the trash... These were large 500Inch Indy head engines with over 12:1 compression. 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: jamesc]
#460301
09/06/09 11:05 AM
09/06/09 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
i'm not looking for a peeing contest either but a mind is like a parachute...only works when it's open. if asked the same question years ago my answer would have been the same as yours. having said that the "proper" thing to do is what works and he's been doing it for years without issue. just because "it's always been done that way" doesn't mean there aren't other and at times better ideas. it also helps with reusing the gaskets as they're not all dinged up from the wire. i also know you can use the gaskets with just wire and no receiver groove. i ran them this way on a turbocharged kawasaki that carried me to a national championship in super comp running up to 35# psig boost. i'd say that test's the gasket a little bit. as for my "buddy" he's actually a moparts member and has a little bit of a resume Ken Bowers
Haha, my mind is open to new ideas that make sense.
Look, if that's the way you think it's done correctly and the way you do it, ok, so be it. And if indeed there's no use for a o-ring as you say, and all of this time every engine builder that's done it this way was wasting their time for nothing, you may be doing a great service to racers and builders by bringing this to light. How awesome would it be to have a reusable copper gasket that required no sealing rings? Simply re anneal the gasket and back in it goes.
The thing I can't understand is why gasket manufacturers have been adding a sealing ring for the cylinder for a hundred years if it wasn't needed? Has copper technology changed? Hmm, I'm intrigued now. I'll have to talk to some builders of pro class engines and see if their onto this no o-ring program. I would love to not have to use the rings if they serve no purpose, as you say.
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: Hemiroid]
#460302
09/06/09 12:03 PM
09/06/09 12:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,384
Upstate NY
Bigcube
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,384
Upstate NY
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I have never run them without something.. When I first got my -1' heads I had o-rings in the heads and a stock block, no groove. Worked fine. Then I took the o-rings out of the heads, milled them a bunch to get rid of the groove and ran cometics. With the new block I have o-rings in the sleeves. I had receiver groves cut into the heads and have been running that way since.
Jim
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: jamesc]
#460305
09/06/09 07:19 PM
09/06/09 07:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Jamesc, I admit that my original response to you wasn't very tactful and set the tone for this "discussion". For that I apologize. That being said,I'm getting a little confused. I state that I believe that using wire with copper and a groove is the correct way and you take me to task for saying that. You tell me about your buddy who doesn't use wire and provide links from google about him. You tell me about your championships and how fast you've went. So I assumed(call me crazy)that your belief was that you don't need the wire/groove. So I then state that maybe you're on to something that I'm unaware of and that I was going to ask some friends who build serious engines to see what they thought. I also mentioned that it would be great to use copper without rings if it works. For this I get called a smarta$$ for wanting to check it out? If using gaskets without wire isn't the "preferred" method, what is? Answer that question, read my posts and tell me why we're arguing?  If you want to continue the conversation via PM's that's fine. I'm done beating this dead horse and don't want to bore the members with it anymore. Peace 
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: Hemiroid]
#460306
09/06/09 07:46 PM
09/06/09 07:46 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
If using gaskets without wire isn't the "preferred" method, what is? Answer that question, read my posts and tell me why we're arguing?
as an innocent bystander, i'll answer the question with my opinion.
copper can be used without O-rings in "some" applications without problems. usually that would be for mild motors, mild compression combo's. say 13-1 up to 600 hp. the intended use of copper gaskets was to use a sealing ring and receiver groove for high compression (or blown) engines that otherwise would not seal with conventional composite gaskets. as time goes on, naturally things change. many people just use the MLS gaskets for thier 16-1 1200+ HP como's since they're reliable, reuseable and relatively inexpensive.
Last edited by DRAM_Perf_Only; 09/06/09 07:47 PM.
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
#460307
09/06/09 07:55 PM
09/06/09 07:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
If using gaskets without wire isn't the "preferred" method, what is? Answer that question, read my posts and tell me why we're arguing?
as an innocent bystander, i'll answer the question with my opinion.
copper can be used without O-rings in "some" applications without problems. usually that would be for mild motors, mild compression combo's. say 13-1 up to 600 hp. the intended use of copper gaskets was to use a sealing ring and receiver groove for high compression (or blown) engines that otherwise would not seal with conventional composite gaskets. as time goes on, naturally things change. many people just use the MLS gaskets for thier 16-1 1200+ HP como's since they're reliable, reuseable and relatively inexpensive.
Ok, I lied, one more  I agree with you 100% Dan. My feelings were if the squeeze is low enough to seal without a ring why would someone use copper, having to deal with all of the water leak issues when they could just use a composite?
I haven't used the new Titan gasket with the teflon seals built in, not having to goo up water passages on copper gaskets would be great as well. Is the teflon a one shot deal, or is it reusable as well?
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Re: Copper head gaskets without O-rings
[Re: jamesc]
#460308
09/07/09 08:40 PM
09/07/09 08:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,919
Long Island, NY
B1Ken
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,919
Long Island, NY
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Quote:
i've never personally used copper gaskets without o rings but i know Ken Bowers has without any issues. i'd be inclined to give it a try. 
That's correct. I've been running copper gaskets without O-rings on all of my B-1 engines since 1997. I just put a little silicone sealer around the water passages. The cool thing is that I can re-use the gaskets over & over again. I still have the first set I used back in 1997.
K.B.
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they are Teflon lined on all of the water ports and oil passages, no leaks ever