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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: EJ440]
#446642
08/23/09 01:02 PM
08/23/09 01:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,286
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,286
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
NOT GOING TO BEATUP ANYONE YET.just looking for ideals or help on what could be worng on my end .and yes i have talked to him bout it. he is not much help.its getting to the point you cant trust anybody.i guest I'm going to take it out. take it a part get some books and try and do it my self.
If you don't know how to do it now(build and diagnose) that motor is not the one you should learn on, take it back and see what he will do. Do you have or have access to a leak down meter? If not buy one now before you take the motor out or apart ad leak it down, that will give you documantation for future action in court, if needed  I sincerely hope that your engine builder takes care of the problem, give him a chance first and let us know your results  BTW, the last motor I built and dyno tested pck up 100 HP from the first pull to the best pull by changing little things like four jet sizes smaller than the carb. company that built them sent them with, changing the timing some for the race gas used and adding velocity stacks with air cleaner on the top  You found the car went faster by changing the cam timing, change it some more, don't quit working on the motor in the car until it won't get any faster no matter what you do  The track is the best test bed out there, all the rest (dynos, flow benches and so on) are just tools to measure with I have fought the same battle, other cars with the "same" parts where going faster than mine was  , some racers won't tell you all of the true story on which parts thier actully using  Do the math on the finish line RPM and the calculated MPH versus the time slip MPH, new converrter may not be the best converter for this new combination, I know one NHRA class racer that treid 8 different converters to find the best one, which was right at .03 better than the next better one  all eight conveters where from the same, really good, converter company, each converter was a little different and he was the test bed at the track for them  Don't give up, test, test and test some more
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/23/09 06:20 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: TS3303]
#446643
08/23/09 01:08 PM
08/23/09 01:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,524
PA
moparacer
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,524
PA
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I have the same situation. I didnt spend the $$$ on this engine but the guy I bought it off of did. $13000+ to be exact.....499, 440-1s...Dynoed at 750HP with a flat tappet cam and 12:1 compression and at 3100bs I am running 10.00 @ 133-134..... I can get a couple tenths out of a tighter converter and gears but the mph tells me there aint no way this thing is making 750..... More like 600-650hp at the most LOL. I mean like come on I could have throwed a 4 inch stroke crank in a 360 with a set of hand ported Edelbrocks and ran like this lol.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: Quicktree]
#446644
08/23/09 01:09 PM
08/23/09 01:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
quick77rt
Parts Problem
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Parts Problem
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
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NOT GOING TO BEATUP ANYONE YET. It seems you have already jacked that option, its good to get the word out on BS deals. However it limits your options. The non involved member I paid to collect my parts told me this happens at least one time in life if your in the car game. If it ever happens to me again it will never be spoke of, made public, just dealt with in the old school ways where issues get resolved, not ignored. Damage control sucks and yes it makes it hard to trust anyone. Boy, I bet the PM boxes are busy today....
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: HPMike]
#446647
08/23/09 01:27 PM
08/23/09 01:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,090
north cakalaky
instigator
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,090
north cakalaky
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check for wide-open throttle using the pedal.
definetly way too much gear unless you only run 1/8th mile...
let's see timeslips....all incrementals
get a local mopar friend to look things over also..maybe he will see something you don't
pull timing cover and check cam timing
car push real hard...dragging brakes, bent rear-end...
definetly lazy 60's
does the motor appear to revving but car just not pulling. (converter slip, trans slip)
65 Barracuda
All aluminum Indy HEMI with some boost!
COMING TO A TRACK NEAR YOU!
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
#446649
08/23/09 05:43 PM
08/23/09 05:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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My brother is trying to help a freind through a similar situation. 1000 HP 572 B-1, small tire A-body, 727 with a 5500 Coan. 60ft's are horrible, car runs 9.60's. The difference is the owner was standing in the dyno room when it made 1000hp.
You opened with "CUT THE BULL" OK, lets do just that.
1. I don't care who the engine builder is, or whether you got all the sheets with numbers on them you thought came with the price tag...THATS ALL BUll!
Most of us have been doing this for a while, If you want to compare apples to apples, we need clear concise information: Parts before. parts now. How many runs? Incrementals? Weather conditions, track conditions? Hood scoop?
I have a buddy with a 473" BBF in a tube chassis T-bird. the engine made 825 HP. I've seen it run 8.87-153 all out, I've also seen it run 9.55-144 all out, with worse conditions, a tighter converter, and taller slicks. Everyone always brags about there best numbers, but everyone who races on a regular basis has days where they are 4 tenths away easily, it doesn't make them think, "I'm yanking the motor tomorrow, it's hurt."
The gear is too deep, which exaggerates the problem of the headers being too small and too long, and personally, there's no way I'm giving the trans and converter a free pass just because they are new...do you still have your old converter?
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: EJ440]
#446652
08/24/09 11:03 AM
08/24/09 11:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
cudadon
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
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Quote:
727 224 low gear
Is that a typo "224" ? Or is it a 274 low gear set? 274 combined with that gear (4.88 IIRC) is WAY TOO MUCH starting line gear ratio!!!
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: EJ440]
#446653
08/24/09 11:13 AM
08/24/09 11:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
cudadon
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
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Quote:
NOT GOING TO BEATUP ANYONE YET.just looking for ideals or help on what could be worng on my end .and yes i have talked to him bout it. he is not much help.its getting to the point you cant trust anybody.i guest I'm going to take it out. take it a part get some books and try and do it my self.
YES I HAVE TALKED TO THE BUILDER ABOUT IT. HE IS NOT MUCH HELP!!!!
This a RED flag. He should be bending over backwards trying to help you get it running right!
Take it back to him and ask him why it's not showing it's potential??
Can he meet you at the track to observe and help tune it? That's a lot of money!! If this is his proven combo he should be proving to you that it has the Horsepower and Torque he told you it would have when he built it!!!
Don
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: cudadon]
#446654
08/24/09 02:01 PM
08/24/09 02:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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first what are the cam specs lobe separation angle. where was the cam in and where is it now? Optimum Shift point for that motor would be 7500 or more??? if it is a 110 LSA and was in at 114 before and now in at 110 it's still needs more advance you are leaving a lot for us to guess. What were the 1/8 times and mph where is you rev limiter chipped?? I too can't see how a 4.88 gear 31 tall tire car can run a full 1/4 with 0% converter slip at 7000 I get 132???
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: EJ440]
#446655
08/24/09 02:32 PM
08/24/09 02:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
after sending 15000.00 with a well known mopar builder that said my 500 cid crate motor would make 800 hp. its time for me to do it myself . my 3100 lb a body will only 10.20's. i was going 10.40's with a 30 over 440 with stage six heads that ran on pump gas . here what he sent me. it's 4.38 bore 4.15 crank. cam is 706/690-274\274 @50 .440-1 fully ported. heads are 69.9 cc 13.1 comp. converter is a 5500 coan made for motor. 4.88 dana 60 and coilover ladder bars 13-31 good year slicks 1.43 60ft . please dont tell me call no one . tell me your real world combs and et and what would you do?
We had a motor similar to yours that my brother did in the mid 90s.
3280lb w/driver, 69' Cuda. 4.56, SS springs, inboard kit, 9in. J converter, footbrake, 12.2-31 Firestones.
Best run was at ATCO on a rent day.....9.21 @ 145.86, w/1.29 60ft.
Would go 9.40-9.45 @ 143+ in average air, with 1.30-1.31 60s.
Take the engine down and make sure everything is there that you paid for, then put it together the right way.
Make sure the rest of the car (fuel, electrical, suspension, converter, etc.) are on the money.
If it doesn't run at least a .30 in good air at that weight, I would think something is off somewhere.
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: cudadon]
#446659
08/24/09 04:26 PM
08/24/09 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,217
Wellington, FL
cudabunch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,217
Wellington, FL
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Quote:
Quote:
727 224 low gear
Is that a typo "224" ? Or is it a 274 low gear set? 274 combined with that gear (4.88 IIRC) is WAY TOO MUCH starting line gear ratio!!!
This is what Iam thinking. Low gear set, 4.88 rear gear 31" tire and is only at 7000 rpm's in the quarter?
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Re: CUT THE BULL !
[Re: emarine01]
#446661
08/24/09 06:11 PM
08/24/09 06:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 110
EJ440
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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Quote:
I would think that the power band between the 2 engines would be a lot different, did you go from a 3.75 stroke to 4.15? It may be the car needs to be changed to suit the new engine, you can be leaving a lot on the table with gear and tire size, I am no drag race expert but I do know in a boat if you replace a 600hp diesel with a 800hp diesel if you don't change the propeller or gear ratio you will have little to no gain at the same rpms
this engine is new with a after market block. the only thing that is the same from frist motor is headers and carb . 727 with 224 frist gear. 488 is what the builder said it needed. the cam is 706/690 274/276@50 comp cam 108 centerline. no one I've talk to likes this cam . the motor is comming apart to see if I got what I paid for . if not I'm taking a 6 hour drive to see this guy!!.
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That sounds like the "logical" thing to do,especially when there's that much money involved, for a product that's not what it's advertised to be! 
I agree with some others that have said you are not really that far off in what that combo should run. The motor might be making 800 hp..but it might not be, too. You should get the car to a chassis dyno...then you will know how much power is getting to the ground. 