Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
#345197
06/13/09 06:18 AM
06/13/09 06:18 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949 land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
|
Quote:
interesting replies to a somewhat simple question. some say yes, it's doable, some say no, some say they've done it. i'll just add this, since we've done builds like that over and over through the years. don't expect to just throw a bunch of parts at it thinking it's an automatic 600 HP. your choice of parts will have a huge effect on the final outcome. 275-280 cfm will get you there if everything else is chosen carefully. the machine work and assembly need to be done right, obviously, but the tuning to do it reliably on pump gas is critical to having any kind of success for a daily driver. it's certainly not aerospace engineering though. you better start with a real good block or the whole thing may not last long. cracked mains and split cylinder walls are common on stock blocks in that HP range.
Hey Dram, lets add one thing. It sometimes wont happen the first time on the dyno, or the first time at the track. It takes a lot of tuning and good parts like carbs and ignition. Get ready, it could take a year or more.
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: SuperStockWagon]
#345200
06/22/09 12:23 AM
06/22/09 12:23 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 945 La Vernia, Texas
Pat7272
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 945
La Vernia, Texas
|
Quote:
I'll beg to differ with that Greg
Quote:
Hmmm..don't tell the competitive NHRA superstock 360's that!
Hey, I hope you guys are right! Guess I just wasnt that optimistic...
If 600 is possible on pump fuel with eddy heads, what do y'all think a big inch (440-460ci) SBM could do with Indy 245s on pump? 750hp? 800hp?
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Pat7272]
#345201
06/22/09 10:53 AM
06/22/09 10:53 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732
Portage,michigan
|
My take on it is this. Only on a very happy dyno is anybody ever going to see 600 ponies on pump gas with eddie heads. I think eddies are CAPABLE of making 600 horsepower, with all the stars aligned correctly(ie correct roller, 13+ compression,good light shortblock assembly)etc.....but in pump gas mode i think you are giving up 30-40 horsepower that makes 600 not in reach.. I have had an eddie 416 motor, and currently a w5 motor, that i think makes an honest 630 horsepower. There isnt an eddie head on the planet that will make within 30 horsepower of a well done high compression w5 motor on race gas running pump gas through it. Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600. Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for Just my humble opinion, having ran one for a few years.
Last edited by B3422W5; 06/22/09 10:57 AM.
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: B3422W5]
#345202
06/22/09 12:24 PM
06/22/09 12:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dartman75
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Dartman75]
#345203
06/22/09 12:41 PM
06/22/09 12:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732
Portage,michigan
|
Quote:
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
I think around 600 has been done as well, but not at 10-10.5 compression(at least that i am aware of)
that said, all dyno's are different
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, low 10.30’s 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: B3422W5]
#345204
06/22/09 01:24 PM
06/22/09 01:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616 Kissimmee Fl.
dusturbd340W5
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
I think around 600 has been done as well, but not at 10-10.5 compression(at least that i am aware of)
that said, all dyno's are different
600 isnt the problem doing it on pupmp gas is I have a 416 at 12.8-1 with CNC Indybrocks on race gas no dyno# but calc weight and et it pushing right at 550 with a TINY solid roller so more in it for sure with a cam change.
70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake
best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dusturbd340W5]
#345205
06/22/09 03:16 PM
06/22/09 03:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486 SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
|
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself. We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block. It's a flattappet engine as well.... Brian
Brian Hafliger
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#345206
06/22/09 03:28 PM
06/22/09 03:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732
Portage,michigan
|
Quote:
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself. We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block. It's a flattappet engine as well.... Brian
Brian, the original poster was asking about doing it with eddie heads, not Indy's
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, low 10.30’s 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#345208
06/22/09 05:38 PM
06/22/09 05:38 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself. We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block. It's a flattappet engine as well.... Brian
Brian, the original poster was asking about doing it with eddie heads, not Indy's
Yeeeahhhh. I figured that one out. Thanks. I posted mostly because I feel the same way as others...eddy heads won't get you there IMO.
i quite agree that the eddy heads won't get you there. the problem is they'll require a lot of work and you'll have to give up good driveability to get there. it can be done, and has been done, but it's not for the faint of heart or the low budget guy. also, throw that 10-10-.5 compression out the window. it's going to need more than that, even with pump gas. the camshaft is a key component to make it work. as i said before, choosing all the right parts and top notch machine work and assembly practices need to be followed. after that? you better be a very good tuner and be willing to spend some time with it. better heads make the 600 HP threshold a whole lot easier. my advice would be sell the eddy's and upgrade now, you'll be happy you did.
Brian, the combo your working on should make that 620 without too much trouble IMO.
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump
[Re: emarine01]
#345210
06/22/09 09:08 PM
06/22/09 09:08 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528 Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
|
You may not make 600 with the eddie heads. If that Ford is really making 600hp which is hard to believe on pump gas, a good 408 with 550hp will make way more torque than the smaller Ford with what has to be giant heads. With that torque you will outrun him.
What does that Ford run at the track?
2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ #4 in the World IHRA Stock 2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ 14x Track Champ All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345211
06/22/09 09:30 PM
06/22/09 09:30 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
600 HP out of a small block Mopar on pump gas has been done at Larry's Auto Machine in Groton Connecticut. Enclosed is a link you can see the dyno sheet and a video of the dyno pull. You guys will also see that Larry's Auto Machine is a sponsor of Moparts.com. http://www.larryspower.com/dyno/SBmopar.htmlIf you Mopar drivers are looking for "Race Winning Power" visit Larry's Auto Machine at www.larryspower.com
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
#345212
06/23/09 12:45 AM
06/23/09 12:45 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486 SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
|
Quote:
600 HP out of a small block Mopar on pump gas has been done at Larry's Auto Machine in Groton Connecticut. Enclosed is a link you can see the dyno sheet and a video of the dyno pull. You guys will also see that Larry's Auto Machine is a sponsor of Moparts.com.
http://www.larryspower.com/dyno/SBmopar.html
If you Mopar drivers are looking for "Race Winning Power" visit Larry's Auto Machine at www.larryspower.com
That link shows a 380" mopar making 582HP so far...did they improve it any???? Did I miss a link or something?
11.25:1 might work in some places with some pump gas, but not around my neck of the woods!!
Lets face it...with eddy heads, and 600HP on pump gas and reasonable compression, you'll spend way more on rings, pistons, all the special stuff, when you can go the Indy head route. But -1's OOTB will not do it either. Without porting, they are as good (or bad) as edelbrocks.
Sure would be a good time for MP to bring back the W5's without all the problems. Brian
Brian Hafliger
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#345213
06/23/09 02:10 AM
06/23/09 02:10 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982 western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
|
I have a friend in Maryland, he & I have built the same combo. 408, resto block,Callies dragonstlayer crank, h beam rods, Indy 360-2 230 cc heads, 11.4 comp je flat tops,zero deck, crane solid roller, 260/266 @.50 .630 lift, T&D 1.6 rockers, 1 7/8 TTI headers,Msd crank trigger. He claims his engine dynod on 93 pump on a stingy dyno at 640 hp 540 tq with a 1050 race demon,ported Indy intake and a lot of tuning.I have not had mine on a dyno, but we both plan to do some street driving with both cars, mostly race. I am trying to get my engine on a dyno before I put it back in the car. If I do I will post the results. I did run the motor on a 93 & 100 mix for break in to be on the safe side. I don't know if this is what your looking for, but I hope it helps. By the way, even doing a lot of the work myself & a lot of advice from people like Dram, RyanJ & BG, This build was a headache & certainly was not cheap. Randy
|
|
|
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dOc !]
#345216
06/23/09 11:03 AM
06/23/09 11:03 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 331 Cincinnati Oh
fasthawk6
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 331
Cincinnati Oh
|
Quote:
Let us see some prices that some of these combos cost.
And how about an E85 build ? [/quote
i have built 3 and with they have all been about 10k with stock blocks that included everything for a running motor,thats using indy eddies and normal eddies none of them made 600 hp but one was real close on tq the indy eddies were not ported but useing 1/4 mile cac. was around 460 at real wheels
|
|
|
|
|