Moparts
smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
Posted By: dirt
smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 10:26 PM
I am gathering up parts to possibly build a stroker motor this winter. i have a .030 over 360 block that i messed up a piston in and had to pull the motor out to fix and seems logical to upgrade while i am at it.
Its a street car that will only see a small amount of racing probably. i run a manual transmission and plan on keeping it. I normally put between 1000 to 2000 miles a year on it for the last 17 years.
right now it has edelbrock RPM heads, M1 single plane intake that i thought i may be able to reuse.
what will make a stroker smallblock run good? i know a mustang thats a 347 and its dynoed at 550 HP and he drives it all over the place. so i cant imagine its out of the question with a mopar.
whats the big trick? roller cam? port the heads for all they are worth? or is it just cheaper to leave the stock stroke and slap on a paxton?who makes good parts to handle the power. i dont want to rebuild it every year. last motor lasted 17 years. and it was a spark plug that came apart and trashed it.
Posted By: BobR
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 10:54 PM
It's pretty tough to get 600 HP out of a small block that will be mostly street driven. My 416 has fully ported Eddy's(285ish on Ryan J's flow bench), 11.7-1 compression and a solid street roller cam to get 500 HP. It has a 6 pak manifold which hurts power but even with a Victor type I can't imagine getting more than 550. I suggest a blower or a nitrous kit.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 11:03 PM
Buddy of mine has a 426 small block with W2's on it and dyno'd right around 600hp with 580 torque and it is pump gas. He said they are a set of Ritter & Weber heads that flow really well. Other than I see the car at cruise nights and I will see it this Sunday at the Mopar show, I don't know much more about it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 11:26 PM
I don't think 600 h.p. is that hard my 416 cranked out 520 h.p. with mildly ported Edelbrocks and just a .533 lift hyd. cam and dual plane intake...
Posted By: Pat7272
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 11:36 PM
I think 600 on pump is certainly possible, but not with Eddy heads and not on a stock block.
Posted By: bad360rt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/12/09 11:50 PM
My 425 made 565hp on 92 octane on a "stingy" dyno, so maybe around 600 on a different dyno? W5 heads on an R3 block tho. It will be street driven and raced on pump gas.
Wouldn't be hard to make 600hp with Edelbrocks and some boost. My old 360 made 592rwhp on 18lbs of boost, pump gas with an a/w intercooler and meth injection, mildly ported R/T heads and a small cam.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 12:01 AM
You can make 600 hp but I dont think your heads will
do it, a set of W-2's or W-5's and a good bit of duration
plus your going to have to spin it... so a good balance
is a must. I made 620 on my 395 ci W-2 but turned it
to 8200... that was a 10.5 compression but I ran 100
octane. I think your going to need a head that flows
about 310 cfm........ JMO
Posted By: emarine01
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 12:16 AM
600 hp , if E85 is pump gas where you live than yes , it wont be that hard for a small stroker , I think 17 years out of a 600hp street stroker may be another issue , To make 600 you will have to turn it some with compression , You will need to find someone who realy knows rings and cyl wall finishing , you will need a good head guy also, good luck this sounds like fun
Posted By: mr. 63plymouth
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:19 AM
600hp out of a small block is pretty easy to make. My 461 small block makes 741hp and 638torque with indy heads, single 750 carb, pump gas and naturally aspirated.Car runs great in plus 30 degree(canada) weather and runs high 9zz at the track, best et
9.75@139.88mph on a 10" tire. Full interior and totally street legal from horn to lights to wipers to full exhaust!!
Posted By: Dartman75
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:32 AM
Quote:
I think 600 on pump is certainly possible, but not with Eddy heads and not on a stock block.
I'll beg to differ with that and I go on a chassis dyno for tuning in 2-5 weeks. My heads flow right around 300CFP by 0.500 lift. Mine are indy eddies, but similar numbers are coming out of Ryan Johnson's hands on a frequent basis. With my COMP XR286R cam in there, it should spec right around that 600 mark. I think car craft did a very similar buildup with a slightly larger Crane 260X0.050 CAM and made an honest 610 HP on lower flowing W2's.
Greg
Posted By: Dartman75
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:34 AM
Quote:
600hp out of a small block is pretty easy to make. My 461 small block makes 741hp and 638torque with indy heads, single 750 carb, pump gas and naturally aspirated.Car runs great in plus 30 degree(canada) weather and runs high 9zz at the track, best et [Email]9.75@139.88mph[/Email] on a 10" tire. Full interior and totally street legal from horn to lights to wipers to full exhaust!!
Wow. Never seen you on the boards until now. I hope to see that car at the track here in and around July!
Greg
Posted By: CW25
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:50 AM
You would be far better off running boost to get there at least from a reliability and drivability point of view. 600hp under 6000 RPM with boost isn't hard at all. No need for a 260* cam, 225* is more like itwith boost. turbododge ran low low 11s with a very basic drivable combo.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:57 AM
"quote"i know a mustang thats a 347 and its dynoed at 550 HP and he drives it all over the place. so i cant imagine its out of the question with a mopar.
is that 347" ford n/a? if a ford can do it,a mopar can do it better
Posted By: dirt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 04:06 AM
yes that mustang is NA. no nos or boost .i just went to help him get it home tonight after he tore out the transmission again. a couple years ago i had to fix the frame on it after he hit a deer at 140 mph. and it was messy!
its a 302 stroked to a 347, roller cam and some good aluminum heads. it was fuel injected but he went to a carb a couple years ago.
so i gotta believe a 408 mopar could do that !
Posted By: goldmember
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 04:30 AM
Build as big as you can afford and skip the Edelbrock heads. Indy has heads that will get you where you want to go,but purchase them through an Indy dealer.
Posted By: goldmember
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 04:31 AM
Be sure and let us know when you get back from the dyno and more importantly the track.
Posted By: SuperStockWagon
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 05:05 AM
Quote:
I think 600 on pump is certainly possible, but not with Eddy heads and not on a stock block.
Hmmm..don't tell the competitive NHRA superstock 360's that!
Stock stroke,9.1 comp,worked 308 iron heads,alot of cam and various other tricks..oh,did I mention a good bank account= 10.0's in a 3500lb car(you do the math). Streetable?? Pump gas?? Just proves most anything is possible with enough$$$
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 05:55 AM
interesting replies to a somewhat simple question.
some say yes, it's doable, some say no, some say they've done it.
i'll just add this, since we've done builds like that over and over through the years. don't expect to just throw a bunch of parts at it thinking it's an automatic 600 HP. your choice of parts will have a huge effect on the final outcome. 275-280 cfm will get you there if everything else is chosen carefully. the machine work and assembly need to be done right, obviously, but the tuning to do it reliably on pump gas is critical to having any kind of success for a daily driver. it's certainly not aerospace engineering though. you better start with a real good block or the whole thing may not last long. cracked mains and split cylinder walls are common on stock blocks in that HP range.
Posted By: DconD100
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 06:52 AM
Well, it's already been mentioned, but with E85 and Edelbrock heads 600 is not out of the question. The 408 in my truck made 578 hp with a Hughes solid flat tappet at 6200rpm. The compression is about 12.7 to 1 with the Keith Black forged flattops. With a 4000 stall and 3.91 gears I drive it to the track and run 11.50's at 4900 feet elevation. Very driveable, and with the added compression I'm getting right at 15 mpg as well!
Posted By: dOc …
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 08:03 AM
Quote:
Well, it's already been mentioned, but with E85 and Edelbrock heads 600 is not out of the question. The 408 in my truck made 578 hp with a Hughes solid flat tappet at 6200rpm. The compression is about 12.7 to 1 with the Keith Black forged flattops. With a 4000 stall and 3.91 gears I drive it to the track and run 11.50's at 4900 feet elevation. Very driveable, and with the added compression I'm getting right at 15 mpg as well!
15mpg, running 11.50's at an altitude, in-a-truck - with E85 ? ...
GIVE me that grocery-list on that motor ... I need one of those for my 5th Ave ! ..
Posted By: BDS871Cuda
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 10:18 AM
Quote:
interesting replies to a somewhat simple question.
some say yes, it's doable, some say no, some say they've done it.
i'll just add this, since we've done builds like that over and over through the years. don't expect to just throw a bunch of parts at it thinking it's an automatic 600 HP. your choice of parts will have a huge effect on the final outcome. 275-280 cfm will get you there if everything else is chosen carefully. the machine work and assembly need to be done right, obviously, but the tuning to do it reliably on pump gas is critical to having any kind of success for a daily driver. it's certainly not aerospace engineering though. you better start with a real good block or the whole thing may not last long. cracked mains and split cylinder walls are common on stock blocks in that HP range.
Hey Dram,
lets add one thing. It sometimes wont happen the
first time on the dyno, or the first time at the
track. It takes a lot of tuning and good parts
like carbs and ignition. Get ready, it could take
a year or more.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/13/09 01:46 PM
Quote:
600hp out of a small block is pretty easy to make. My 461 small block makes 741hp and 638torque with indy heads, single 750 carb, pump gas and naturally aspirated.Car runs great in plus 30 degree(canada) weather and runs high 9zz at the track, best et [Email]9.75@139.88mph[/Email] on a 10" tire. Full interior and totally street legal from horn to lights to wipers to full exhaust!!
Any chance of posting cam specs and the power band on your small block? thankx Craig oops compression ratio also
Posted By: RAY1969CARS
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 02:16 AM
please give more info on your combo cam, comp ,intake thanks bro i have a 360 w5 need more input!!!
thanks man! mopar or no car!
Posted By: Pat7272
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 04:23 AM
Quote:
I'll beg to differ with that
Greg
Quote:
Hmmm..don't tell the competitive NHRA superstock 360's that!
Hey, I hope you guys are right! Guess I just wasnt that optimistic...
If 600 is possible on pump fuel with eddy heads, what do y'all think a big inch (440-460ci) SBM could do with Indy 245s on pump? 750hp? 800hp?
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 02:53 PM
My take on it is this.
Only on a very happy dyno is anybody ever going to see 600 ponies on pump gas with eddie heads.
I think eddies are CAPABLE of making 600 horsepower, with all the stars aligned correctly(ie correct roller, 13+ compression,good light shortblock assembly)etc.....but in pump gas mode i think you are giving up 30-40 horsepower that makes 600 not in reach..
I have had an eddie 416 motor, and currently a w5 motor, that i think makes an honest 630 horsepower. There isnt an eddie head on the planet that will make within 30 horsepower of a well done high compression w5 motor on race gas running pump gas through it.
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
Just my humble opinion, having ran one for a few years.
Posted By: Dartman75
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 04:24 PM
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 04:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
I think around 600 has been done as well, but not at 10-10.5 compression(at least that i am aware of)
that said, all dyno's are different
Posted By: dusturbd340W5
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 05:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sticking with the facts, i think a well thought out eddie on pump gas COULD make 550, maybe a touch more, but not 600.
Were it me i would get a set of big CNC Indy smallblock heads, to where an optimal combo would make 600 or better in pump gas mode. The eddies just arent a big enough head NA to make the kind of power you are looking for
I agree and disagree. I think 600 has been done and will continue to be done with an edelbrock head. I bought mine thinking they were better OOTB than they really are, and I was just shooting for something in the 500HP+ range. I've spent as much on my Indy Edelbrocks as I could have spent on a set of indy 360-1's to be at the same point power wise. But if I had to do it again, I'd have done an Indy 360-1 head for sure.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd highly recommend passing over the edelbrock heads as you'll have a lot of $$$ in them or have a less balanced motor build by the time the edelbrocks support 600 HP. A CNC ported 360-1 will do this much more easily with less CAM and probably only a small % more $$$ to do it.
Greg
I think around 600 has been done as well, but not at 10-10.5 compression(at least that i am aware of)
that said, all dyno's are different
600 isnt the problem doing it on pupmp gas is I have a 416 at 12.8-1 with CNC Indybrocks on race gas no dyno# but calc weight and et it pushing right at 550 with a TINY solid roller so more in it for sure with a cam change.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 07:16 PM
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself.
We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block.
It's a flattappet engine as well....
Brian
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 07:28 PM
Quote:
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself.
We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block.
It's a flattappet engine as well....
Brian
Brian, the original poster was asking about doing it with eddie heads, not Indy's
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 07:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself.
We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block.
It's a flattappet engine as well....
Brian
Brian, the original poster was asking about doing it with eddie heads, not Indy's
Yeeeahhhh. I figured that one out. Thanks.
I posted mostly because I feel the same way as others...eddy heads won't get you there IMO.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 09:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well I hope it's not out of the question, cause we're getting ready to rebuild a 440" sb mopar on pump gas and 600 is our minimum target!
Someone else built it the first time, and it made only 577HP but was eating itself.
We will be fixing all the problems and shooting for 620HP on pump with only 10.5:1.
We're using his Indy 230cc -2 heads over and it's a nice siamesed bore R3 48°lifter bore block.
It's a flattappet engine as well....
Brian
Brian, the original poster was asking about doing it with eddie heads, not Indy's
Yeeeahhhh. I figured that one out. Thanks.
I posted mostly because I feel the same way as others...eddy heads won't get you there IMO.
i quite agree that the eddy heads won't get you there. the problem is they'll require a lot of work and you'll have to give up good driveability to get there. it can be done, and has been done, but it's not for the faint of heart or the low budget guy. also, throw that 10-10-.5 compression out the window. it's going to need more than that, even with pump gas. the camshaft is a key component to make it work. as i said before, choosing all the right parts and top notch machine work and assembly practices need to be followed. after that? you better be a very good tuner and be willing to spend some time with it.
better heads make the 600 HP threshold a whole lot easier.
my advice would be sell the eddy's and upgrade now, you'll be happy you did.
Brian, the combo your working on should make that 620 without too much trouble IMO.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/22/09 09:47 PM
I think if you hit the 600 mark with the eddies and around 11.5 to 12 to 1 you will spend more time tuning than driving
Posted By: Jacob Pitt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump - 06/23/09 01:08 AM
You may not make 600 with the eddie heads. If that Ford is really making 600hp which is hard to believe on pump gas, a good 408 with 550hp will make way more torque than the smaller Ford with what has to be giant heads. With that torque you will outrun him.
What does that Ford run at the track?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 01:30 AM
600 HP out of a small block Mopar on pump gas has been done at Larry's Auto Machine in Groton Connecticut. Enclosed is a link you can see the dyno sheet and a video of the dyno pull. You guys will also see that Larry's Auto Machine is a sponsor of Moparts.com.
http://www.larryspower.com/dyno/SBmopar.htmlIf you Mopar drivers are looking for "Race Winning Power" visit Larry's Auto Machine at
www.larryspower.com
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 04:45 AM
Quote:
600 HP out of a small block Mopar on pump gas has been done at Larry's Auto Machine in Groton Connecticut. Enclosed is a link you can see the dyno sheet and a video of the dyno pull. You guys will also see that Larry's Auto Machine is a sponsor of Moparts.com.
http://www.larryspower.com/dyno/SBmopar.html
If you Mopar drivers are looking for "Race Winning Power" visit Larry's Auto Machine at www.larryspower.com
That link shows a 380" mopar making 582HP so far...did they improve it any???? Did I miss a link or something?
11.25:1 might work in some places with some pump gas, but not around my neck of the woods!!
Lets face it...with eddy heads, and 600HP on pump gas and reasonable compression, you'll spend way more on rings, pistons, all the special stuff, when you can go the Indy head route.
But -1's OOTB will not do it either. Without porting, they are as good (or bad) as edelbrocks.
Sure would be a good time for MP to bring back the W5's without all the problems.
Brian
Posted By: b1dartsport
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:10 AM
I have a friend in Maryland, he & I have built the same combo. 408, resto block,Callies dragonstlayer crank, h beam rods, Indy 360-2 230 cc heads, 11.4 comp je flat tops,zero deck, crane solid roller, 260/266 @.50 .630 lift, T&D 1.6 rockers, 1 7/8 TTI headers,Msd crank trigger. He claims his engine dynod on 93 pump on a stingy dyno at 640 hp 540 tq with a 1050 race demon,ported Indy intake and a lot of tuning.I have not had mine on a dyno, but we both plan to do some street driving with both cars, mostly race. I am trying to get my engine on a dyno before I put it back in the car. If I do I will post the results. I did run the motor on a 93 & 100 mix for break in to be on the safe side. I don't know if this is what your looking for, but I hope it helps. By the way, even doing a lot of the work myself & a lot of advice from people like Dram, RyanJ & BG, This build was a headache & certainly was not cheap. Randy
Posted By: dOc …
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:17 AM
Let us see some prices that some of these combos cost.
And how about an E85 build ?
Posted By: dart_73_br
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 02:33 PM
Yeah, what do you suggest for a E85 combo and just strip usage.
Posted By: fasthawk6
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 03:03 PM
Quote:
Let us see some prices that some of these combos cost.
And how about an E85 build ? [/quote
i have built 3 and with they have all been about 10k with stock blocks that included everything for a running motor,thats using indy eddies and normal eddies none of them made 600 hp but one was real close on tq the indy eddies were not ported but useing 1/4 mile cac. was around 460 at real wheels
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 03:10 PM
Quote:
Yeah, what do you suggest for a E85 combo and just strip usage.
With E-85 it would be easy. You can run much more
compression, I run 14.1:1
Posted By: emarine01
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 03:17 PM
Hey another point on 600hp small blocks, Dram brought it up before , What do you guys think of 600 ponies on a la block? or any factory production block? My delima is we built shooting for 650 with w5s and I think we came real close, Even with a light crank , bme alu rods, light pistons, studs with steel main caps and good wall thickness we chose to back down the power to around 600 for race only, I think there is a point of no return on small block builds and the block and part choice come in around 600hp, something to think about for a street rig
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 03:52 PM
I've built several that have made over 700 NA on pump 92, but those are'nt Edelbrock head motors you're going to go drive 80 miles at a clip to a car show etc with.
The Last 416 INDY motor I did on pump gas made 680 with a roller.
Last Edelbrock head real "street/daily driver" type motor I did was a 408 with Stage 2 E heads & a mild 250 @ .050" Hydraulic roller with Edelbrock EFI....that is probably only a 450 HP motor...but will run mid 11's in an E body & be able to drive cross country.
600 With Ported E heads is certainly possible especially on a normal dyno, but will require alot of camshaft to do it. ie. it won't be very street friendly, hard on parts, & require a ton of converter to work.......We just made 610HP on Rider's stingy pump with an unported 1977 W2 head last week @ 367 inches.... all it takes is lot's 'O Cam (& RPM in that one's case)
But I think better question to be asking is how much car weight & how fast you want it to go, dyno #'s are just #'s.....it's a tuning tool, not a definitive # maker. I talk to guys all the time, that tell me they want to do a "600HP motor"..... & then I come to find out they have a typical 3200-3300 lb A body & would be plenty happy running Mid 11's with it..... Well it takes About 450 HP or less (depending on car & overall chassis combo) to do that..... so I always try to get them away from asking for raw power #'s. & get down to what really matters.
Posted By: moper
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 03:55 PM
I agree with the possibility. But a street car that rarely races? That means idile time, and age on the lifters and spring, not to mention maxing out the stock block even with the mods. I would be looking for an aftermarket block with either W2s or the Indy -1s. I think 550 is pretty easy to reach and be streetable. But the next level will require more because of the concessions made to keep it alive and running pump fuel. You're not talking a cast crank and ported Edelbrocks anymore.
The next question is... Why 600? Instead of racing cruise night figures, how fast do you ned to go to beat the Mustang?
Posted By: dirt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:39 PM
ok here is the better question then
what would i need to do to get in the low 11's with the 340? thats what it would take to catch the mustang.
1970 dodge dart. quarter tubbed. 3.91 gears (can change this ,i have several different sets 3.55, 4.56 ,4.30) 4-speed, about 3300 lbs
the motor is a .060 over 340, forged crank, forged 10.5-1 pistons, figured 10.2-1 with the 65 cc edelbrock rpm heads on it, M1 single plane intake, 750 holley.
i need a cam and headers yet ,here is the cam i was looking at from hughes.
thanks for any advice on this.
kenny
Flat Tappet Hydraulic
. Hotter Street performance and strip: HP exhaust or headers, performance intake 3.70:1 gears, 4 bbl or 3x2, Idles so you know its in there. HP ported Stage I heads 160psi suggested cylinder pressure 2800rpm stall. Very hot daily driver.
VIEW OUR CAMSHAFT F.A.Q. PAGE.
Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .524"
.540"
Intake Valve Lift 1.6
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .558"
.576"
Intake Duration at .050"
Exhaust Duration at .050" 228°
232°
Lobe Separation Angle 110
Intake Opening at .050"
Exhaust Opening at .050" 7ş BTC
41° BBC
Intake Closing at .050"
Exhaust Closing at .050" 49° ABC
3° ATC
Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI 165
Sweet Spot RPM 2300 - 5700
Note: With any hydraulic camshaft larger than our 1523AL/BL grind, we strongly encourage using adjustable rocker arms. The stock stamped rockers do not have a true 1.5:1 ratio. They will check somewhere between 1.38:1 and 1.45:1 ratio. This will yield a loss of lift (up to .045"), 2°/3° duration loss and also slow the rate-of-lift resulting in a possible 25HP loss. Any camshaft using double valve springs must use adjustable rocker arms to prevent damage when the stock rocker arms break. All camshafts are supplied without keys. Specify part number 7542 when ordering if you need a new cam key. See the Camshaft Accessory page for more information
Power Ranges: These are the "sweet spot" in the power range. Generally we suggest shifting at 300-500 RPM above the "sweet spot" for the best ETÂ’s.
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:48 PM
Stock stroke 340? Low 11's @ 3300 lbs.??
Posted By: dirt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:57 PM
yes its still the stock stroke. i was thinking about a stroker but would rather not spend the cash if i can avoid it. may be i am asking to much?
Posted By: emarine01
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 06:57 PM
5700 rpm hyd cam
stamp steel rockers
Posted By: Dartman75
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 07:00 PM
You seem to have a good chassis setup for low 11's. From where you're at, port those heads and put a CAM about 10 degrees bigger than the hughes grind you've listed. Keeping the same compression and bottom end, you're probably there. Be careful porting the heads to make sure you keep or raise your compression. If after that you will want to spend the bit extra on stroker kit for your motor, you will be able to run that CAM on the streets very nicely. I'm quite fond of my roller COMP XR286R grind (248@0.050 and 615 lift on 1.6's) that I got with COMPS new roller lifter through Brian/Ou812. I also have a very nice scott brown solid that came out of my first build with less than 1000 miles on it. Spec's 244/256 and 0.573/0.581 lift on 1.6 rockers if I recally. That CAM has GREAT bottom end and pulled very hard to 6500. The hughes grind you're after is just too mild to really be much more than a reasonable street CAM and a lousy strip CAM. Both my old and current CAM will pull 10" of vacuum or more idling at just 700-800 RPM so they are quite streetable, ran vacuum brakes and eht whole 10 yeards. I idle the 386 as low as 600 on a cold start and it will not die on me.
As for head porting, Ryan Jonhson did mine and If you can afford to part with about a grand, you will love the results.
Greg
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 07:02 PM
It can be done, if you were serious but, 4" crank will get it done
in a MUCH more streetable package.
Posted By: Cudahlr
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 09:01 PM
Low 11's=
My combo is a 360 with stock crank and stock rods all mag checked for cracks, Eddy heads with 57cc chambers flowing in the 285ish range, 11.7-1 comp, M-1 single plane intake with a 2" super sucker spacer, holly 950 carb, The cam is only .575 lift with 1.6 rockers, Smith brothers pushrods, TTI. step headers, 9.5" dynamic converter, 727 trans and 4.10 rear gears. In a 68 barracuda roughly 3400 pounds with me in it.
My best = 11.24 @ 121 mph
Made 421 horsepower at the rear wheels.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 09:05 PM
Quote:
yes its still the stock stroke. i was thinking about a stroker but would rather not spend the cash if i can avoid it. may be i am asking to much?
You are asking alot, with a stock stroke you have to
be willing to SPIN it and thats not happening with a
hyl cam, you would need more of everything, more head
flow more carb, more gear and a lighter car. I made
620 on a 395ci W-2 and it wasnt all that much, could
have had more cam but I didnt want to change springs
very often(roller cam)
Posted By: b1dartsport
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 09:58 PM
Quote:
I've built several that have made over 700 NA on pump 92, but those are'nt Edelbrock head motors you're going to go drive 80 miles at a clip to a car show etc with.
The Last 416 INDY motor I did on pump gas made 680 with a roller.
Last Edelbrock head real "street/daily driver" type motor I did was a 408 with Stage 2 E heads & a mild 250 @ .050" Hydraulic roller with Edelbrock EFI....that is probably only a 450 HP motor...but will run mid 11's in an E body & be able to drive cross country.
600 With Ported E heads is certainly possible especially on a normal dyno, but will require alot of camshaft to do it. ie. it won't be very street friendly, hard on parts, & require a ton of converter to work.......We just made 610HP on Rider's stingy pump with an unported 1977 W2 head last week @ 367 inches.... all it takes is lot's 'O Cam (& RPM in that one's case)
But I think better question to be asking is how much car weight & how fast you want it to go, dyno #'s are just #'s.....it's a tuning tool, not a definitive # maker. I talk to guys all the time, that tell me they want to do a "600HP motor"..... & then I come to find out they have a typical 3200-3300 lb A body & would be plenty happy running Mid 11's with it..... Well it takes About 450 HP or less (depending on car & overall chassis combo) to do that..... so I always try to get them away from asking for raw power #'s. & get down to what really matters.
I starting buying parts & talking to other people and kind of got carried away with my build. I originally bought a car that was going mid to low 11s & the chassis,convert,ect were sorted out pretty well. This car was driven on the street and all I really wanted to do was duplicate that performance with a little more dependability. The previous owner grenaded the motor, that is all I had to add to the combo. Now it needs a converter upgrade,a dana rear & probably suspension & brakes. Just my
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/23/09 10:07 PM
Quote:
Low 11's=
My combo is a 360 with stock crank and stock rods all mag checked for cracks, Eddy heads with 57cc chambers flowing in the 285ish range, 11.7-1 comp, M-1 single plane intake with a 2" super sucker spacer, holly 950 carb, The cam is only .575 lift with 1.6 rockers, Smith brothers pushrods, TTI. step headers, 9.5" dynamic converter, 727 trans and 4.10 rear gears. In a 68 barracuda roughly 3400 pounds with me in it.
My best = 11.24 @ 121 mph
Made 421 horsepower at the rear wheels.
OK, now knock .270" of stroke out of that and try it again with a 9.5" converter and 4.10 gears.
I never said it was impossible.
Posted By: justinp61
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/24/09 02:27 AM
Quote:
ok here is the better question then
what would i need to do to get in the low 11's with the 340? thats what it would take to catch the mustang.
My 3300# 340 Dart went 7.24 in the 1/8 with worn out valve springs. It's a .030 over with Ross ft pistons, 11.2-1, Eagle I beam rods, stock steel crank balanced, Hughes 3742 hydraulic cam, 1.6 Hughes rockers, 55cc Edelbrocks that flow 290s, Weiand X-Celerator with a Quick Fuel Q-750, 727, 4400 9.5" converter and 4.30 gears. I shifted it at 6200, I tried up to 6900 with no et change.
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/24/09 01:59 PM
That's a good running package Justin. I wouldn't have guessed
performance that good. Definitely an over-achiever.
Posted By: dirt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/24/09 02:26 PM
i have had my edelbrock heads about 9 years now and dont think i remember a 55cc head? is that something that they came out with later or did you mill them?
my heads are 65cc.i would aslo wonder how much compression i could run on pump gas with out problems. i was always told that a little over 10-1 with aluminum heads was about it but others have said higher, that it would be better to check cylinder pressure instead.
also what increade in power and performance would you see increasing from 10.2-1 to 11-1 ? considering i havnt picked the cam yet either so both could be matched?
Posted By: Dartman75
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/24/09 05:24 PM
Compression depends on your altitude, CAM selection and other things like fuel ratio, head quench and ignition timing. I live at 2300ft altitude and regularily DA is over 3000 so I can get away with 10.8 even on a hot day, with 91 in the tank (equivalent of US's 93 I'm told). Eddie heads, 0 decked flat top piston and a 0.39 gasket makes for a nice tight quench area. Cranking compression is 165 (camshafts in the 244/256 (old) and 248/254(new) ranges). I think guys used to say the limit for cranking compression was in the range 150-170 range, though some guys run as much as 190 or even a touch more but that will be near the detonation point on hotter days. I know there are a few posts on here with guys in the 205 and 210 range that have had detonation problems on pump gas on even pretty mild motors but can't recall if they were iron or alum heads. If you select your CAM to lower that cranking compression you'll get away with more compression, though then you have to worry about your dynamic compression at higher RPMs and make sure you don't over advance the ignition more than neccessary. If somehow you get pinging or detonation on the build you choose, there are some ways to control that after that fact. Water injection or water/meth injection, retarding CAM timing to bleed low end compression off. There are reverse water flow pumps for the big blocks and might be something for the small blocks as well. Or pop the head and put athicker gasket in. Things like that. But hopefully you do the homework up front so you don't have to take measures like that.
I don't know your elevation but You can probalby get away with low to mid 10.0 to 10.3 maybe 10.5 even at sea level on a similar CAM to mine.
Greg
Posted By: justinp61
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 06/24/09 10:45 PM
Quote:
i have had my edelbrock heads about 9 years now and dont think i remember a 55cc head? is that something that they came out with later or did you mill them?
Mine have been milled, also it ran on pump 93 .
Posted By: kotacars
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/30/13 01:22 AM
Well my little 387ci did 614hp and 538 tq on pump gas and its a street car
Posted By: Stroker Scamp
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/30/13 06:19 AM
Quote:
Well my little 387ci did 614hp and 538 tq on pump gas and its a street car
give us a run down of your parts
Posted By: D-50
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/30/13 11:54 PM
My 394 c.i. small block made 662 hp and 533 ft lbs torque with a 1050 on it and pump gas. It has a 950 holley on it now.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/31/13 12:02 AM
Here's the trick.
Posted By: dodgeboy11
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/31/13 03:18 AM
575 hp at about 5900 rpm with a 408, pre magnum roller block. Hydraulic roller lifters and an erson cam in the 256 @.050 range if I recall correctly. Heads were Indy oval ports flowing at peak, 337 cfm @ .650" lift, cam was opening valves to approximately .600" so the full airflow wasn't being utilized. Scat forged crankshaft, studded mains, stock caps. Scat I beam rods (I would have opted for H beams on this build) Icon flat top pistons at zero deck. FelPro .039" crushed head gaskets, 65 cc chambers and thoroughly modified Indy rocker arms (grooved shafts, grooved rocker body to provide close to full time oiling to the ball and cup at the pushrod) Smith brothers pushrods and polished ball adjusters on the rocker arms (that Indy rocker arm stuff is crap). Ported Indy intake matched to the heads, some 1-3/4" dirt track headers and a 950 quickfuel carb if I remember correctly. It ran on pump fuel but our elevation is right around 5000 ft. The numbers were corrected to sea level with DTS' dyno software. With a solid roller camshaft and T&D rockers, this engine would have been over 600 hp. A similar build we did was with rectangle port heads that I did prior to these oval ports that flowed about 335 cfm, had the matching intake, a solid roller camshaft and approximately 10.8:1 cr instead of 11.6 made 591 hp on the same dyno. The owners threw nitrous at it and couldn't quite break into the 9's. Finally missed the tune and burned a piston then proceeded to take the engine to another shop which tore the engine apart and talked nothing but crap about the parts we used. Ah well, I thought it did quite well for a stock 360 block and caps with enough nitrous to pick up over 1 second in the quarter. We knew they were going to use nitrous, but they didn't tell us how much. I suspect it was a snowball effect, we want to go faster so let's throw some more nitrous at it. I feel that either one of those engines would do what the op is asking an engine to do.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/31/13 06:00 PM
Posted By: jim sciortino
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/31/13 09:31 PM
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Nice build...
For people to think 600 on pumpgas at 400+ inches in this day and age isn't VERY doable, is incredible.
Posted By: mshred
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 07/31/13 09:36 PM
Quote:
575 hp at about 5900 rpm with a 408, pre magnum roller block. Hydraulic roller lifters and an erson cam in the 256 @.050 range if I recall correctly. Heads were Indy oval ports flowing at peak, 337 cfm @ .650" lift, cam was opening valves to approximately .600" so the full airflow wasn't being utilized. Scat forged crankshaft, studded mains, stock caps. Scat I beam rods (I would have opted for H beams on this build) Icon flat top pistons at zero deck. FelPro .039" crushed head gaskets, 65 cc chambers and thoroughly modified Indy rocker arms (grooved shafts, grooved rocker body to provide close to full time oiling to the ball and cup at the pushrod) Smith brothers pushrods and polished ball adjusters on the rocker arms (that Indy rocker arm stuff is crap). Ported Indy intake matched to the heads, some 1-3/4" dirt track headers and a 950 quickfuel carb if I remember correctly. It ran on pump fuel but our elevation is right around 5000 ft. The numbers were corrected to sea level with DTS' dyno software. With a solid roller camshaft and T&D rockers, this engine would have been over 600 hp. A similar build we did was with rectangle port heads that I did prior to these oval ports that flowed about 335 cfm, had the matching intake, a solid roller camshaft and approximately 10.8:1 cr instead of 11.6 made 591 hp on the same dyno. The owners threw nitrous at it and couldn't quite break into the 9's. Finally missed the tune and burned a piston then proceeded to take the engine to another shop which tore the engine apart and talked nothing but crap about the parts we used. Ah well, I thought it did quite well for a stock 360 block and caps with enough nitrous to pick up over 1 second in the quarter. We knew they were going to use nitrous, but they didn't tell us how much. I suspect it was a snowball effect, we want to go faster so let's throw some more nitrous at it. I feel that either one of those engines would do what the op is asking an engine to do.
What kind of rpms was that motor shifted at with the hydraulic roller? Double valvesprings on it? Stock lifters?
Sorry for all the questions, just got me curious thats all. My hydraulic rollers never really seemed to like rpm so just wondering where this one did
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 12:52 AM
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Now you're just showing off Brian. 
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 01:43 AM
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Hey Brian, what does a motor like that cost???
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 01:50 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Hey Brian, what does a motor like that cost???
I think CC did the cost at the end of the article...something like 10K or 11K.
Had alot of guys question the 9000 series crank...I tell them if the BLOCK doesn't break first, I'd be surprised!
Those 9000 cranks are pretty tough...if you don't detonate the engine.
If your going to race it alot, the 4340 crank is a better choice as it will go many many years without breakage.
But I would still use the I beam rods at that power level.
Brian
Posted By: onebaddakota
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 02:38 AM
My 410 magnum with the factory hydraulic roller and 11.8 compression made 582HP and 594HP with a dominator. I drive it everywhere and in rush hour traffic.
The build:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7220612
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 03:22 AM
Brian, I'm surprised you would use the I beams again. Lol
Posted By: viperblue72
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 04:25 AM
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Is installing the brass tubes pretty basic? Why not tube the pushrod pinch?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 06:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I guess I'd have to eat my words!
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/
Is installing the brass tubes pretty basic? Why not tube the pushrod pinch?
Tubing the pinch doesn't do much IMO. I slow the air down other ways that seem to make great power without the hassle of all those tubes.
I don't even tube the head bolt hole anymore when pushrod oiling...I just leave the bolt showing and seal the threads/underhead with a bit of silicone.
Posted By: dirt
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/01/13 08:32 PM
Wow, someone dug up this thread after 4 years.
I still have not finished the 340 that I originally posted about. but I still hope to. I just finished helping my son build a dart and that took at least 3 years so now I can get back to my own car again.
how well does that blow through supercharger work? I have thought about one of those before but don't know anyone who used one on a carb car.
Posted By: dodgeboy11
Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas - 08/03/13 08:11 AM
Quote:
What kind of rpms was that motor shifted at with the hydraulic roller? Double valvesprings on it? Stock lifters?
Sorry for all the questions, just got me curious thats all. My hydraulic rollers never really seemed to like rpm so just wondering where this one did
I don't recall what the solid roller motor was turning rpm, about all I had to do with that one was the heads and intake. The hyd roller motor wouldn't turn over 6500, and when it reached 6500, it wasn't happy. Shift points, realistically, are probably 6200, maybe 6300. I really didn't like the pushrod angles. Between the 59 degree lifter angle and the short pushrods necessary with the tall hydraulic lifters, it just seemed like an accident waiting to happen. But it never did spit anything out and it sure ran strong on the dyno.
Here's a picture down one of the intake runners on the oval port.
