Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: turbobitt]
#3254000
08/27/24 02:40 AM
08/27/24 02:40 AM
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cudaerik
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11:1 on a Hemi will be just fine but if your looking to reduce compression with a thicker head gasket it may not be worth the money/hassle of getting longer custom pushrods. I have used Racetec in the past and they will most likely be able to make you a custom piston very reasonably and are very easy to deal with. I currently have a 572 with 11:1 and the CNC ported 426-1 with there 268/264 cam and runs fine on the street.
My additional advise, I would buy a quality roller lifter depending on how the lifter bore is configured and also be aware of the oil drain back sealing in the corners of the head gasket/heads, Sometimes can leak with MLS gaskets if the deck and heads are not prepped correctly.
AG Thanks for sharing you thoughts on this. Could you please share you cam card? Would be interesting to see where your cam is closing the intake valve ABDC. Thanks for sharing your cam card. I know it would be the best to get the compression right with the right set of piston. With the thoughts to that this engine is just been put together and broken in I was hoping to not take apart the shortblock and get to the compression change with only gasket thickness. You're mentioning money/ hassle with longer pushrods, Is there any more to changing the pushrods for length on a Hemi compared to a Wedge motor? is there something that I'm missing out?
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: cudaerik]
#3254003
08/27/24 04:55 AM
08/27/24 04:55 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 774 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
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11:1 on a Hemi will be just fine but if your looking to reduce compression with a thicker head gasket it may not be worth the money/hassle of getting longer custom pushrods. I have used Racetec in the past and they will most likely be able to make you a custom piston very reasonably and are very easy to deal with. I currently have a 572 with 11:1 and the CNC ported 426-1 with there 268/264 cam and runs fine on the street.
My additional advise, I would buy a quality roller lifter depending on how the lifter bore is configured and also be aware of the oil drain back sealing in the corners of the head gasket/heads, Sometimes can leak with MLS gaskets if the deck and heads are not prepped correctly.
AG Thanks for sharing you thoughts on this. Could you please share you cam card? Would be interesting to see where your cam is closing the intake valve ABDC. Thanks for sharing your cam card. I know it would be the best to get the compression right with the right set of piston. With the thoughts to that this engine is just been put together and broken in I was hoping to not take apart the shortblock and get to the compression change with only gasket thickness. You're mentioning money/ hassle with longer pushrods, Is there any more to changing the pushrods for length on a Hemi compared to a Wedge motor? is there something that I'm missing out? There is nothing extra special but they are very long, and two different lengths. because of the length you are going to want to buy a really good name brand pushrod with some wall thickness. With the Indy rockers you will want no oil holes in the pushrod cups to keep an oil "well" at the rocker ball/cup interface. Its going to be small details like this that will make a difference. They will be more money than you think..... I would also order the cam with a full groove journal, depending on what block you have so that the heads will have full time oil to the rockers. This will be an option so you would have to specify. Some block take oil directly from the lifter galley and bypass the cam journal so it would be wise to determine what block you have. Also would use Indy's oil restrictors in the heads to meter the oil flow. You would have to check the heads to see if they are installed already or not. AG.
Last edited by turbobitt; 08/27/24 05:02 AM.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: cudaerik]
#3254090
08/27/24 01:34 PM
08/27/24 01:34 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 722 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
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I may have missed it but have you measured/confirmed compression ratio?
If not I would start there. May need no changes. With the current set up the static compression is 13.3:1, With the intake valve closing at 88 degrees ABDC the dynamic compression is at 6.64:1. This cam is at 288/288 @.050" so it will be to much for something that will be driven on the streets. What I'm really searching for is knowledge and opinions on the route of lowering compression with a head gasket change from .045" to.092" thickness. Will this mess up the quench // squish? I know it would on a wedge head, but how does this effect a hemi chamber?With the new cam that's on 263/269 @.050" 108 LSA and the intake valve closing at 58 degrees ABDC and the .092" head gasket the static compression will be right at 11.69:1 and the dynamic compression will be at 8.55:1 Opinions on this would be much appreciated. Yes I read that in your first post. The question was, did you measure this yourself and confirm it or is that what you were told.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#3254154
08/27/24 06:51 PM
08/27/24 06:51 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 722 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
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super stock
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That's a good idea but part of where I was going with my question is what does it have for a ring pack?
If the goal is to not disassemble the short block but it has very low tension rings are you ok with running a vacuum pump, as it seems to have had one previously based on the pulley/mandrel.
If deemed necessary to reduce compression I would just change the pistons or possibly machine some dome off the current pistons if that's an option.
Aside from the pushrod issue mentioned I would think it would be unfavorable to open up piston to chamber distance (I check with solder) and then you're going to need thicker intake gaskets which may not hold as well.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: INTMD8]
#3254210
08/28/24 02:14 AM
08/28/24 02:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 106 Norway
cudaerik
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the compression ratios previously listen in this post is measured by a well know and professional engine builder. I got all the information from the engine builder and when I run them trough various compression calculators I get the same results.
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: INTMD8]
#3254211
08/28/24 02:15 AM
08/28/24 02:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 106 Norway
cudaerik
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I may have missed it but have you measured/confirmed compression ratio?
If not I would start there. May need no changes. With the current set up the static compression is 13.3:1, With the intake valve closing at 88 degrees ABDC the dynamic compression is at 6.64:1. This cam is at 288/288 @.050" so it will be to much for something that will be driven on the streets. What I'm really searching for is knowledge and opinions on the route of lowering compression with a head gasket change from .045" to.092" thickness. Will this mess up the quench // squish? I know it would on a wedge head, but how does this effect a hemi chamber?With the new cam that's on 263/269 @.050" 108 LSA and the intake valve closing at 58 degrees ABDC and the .092" head gasket the static compression will be right at 11.69:1 and the dynamic compression will be at 8.55:1 Opinions on this would be much appreciated. Yes I read that in your first post. The question was, did you measure this yourself and confirm it or is that what you were told. the compression ratios previously listen in this post is measured by a well know and professional engine builder. I got all the information from the engine builder and when I run them trough various compression calculators I get the same results.
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#3254213
08/28/24 02:33 AM
08/28/24 02:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
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cudaerik
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When you have stuff like that which is unknown to you I'd start out by running it on a dyno. Get yourself some baseline numbers and then figure it out from there. With the engine on the dyno you can check for leaks, run a compression check, watch each cylinder EGT during a pull, etc. Engines like that are grenades if they haven't been put together properly and it is a lot of work (and a big hassle) to put it in a car only to find out that there is a pan leak, or a rear main leak, or the thrust bearing is pounded out, or some other such problem. This engine will for sure be run on the dyno before it will be installed in the car. Where I want with my post to start with is to get a confirmation that lowering the compression with a gasket change from 0.045" to 0.092" is acceptable, would be much appreciated if you could share your thoughts on that.
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: INTMD8]
#3254214
08/28/24 02:36 AM
08/28/24 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 106 Norway
cudaerik
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That's a good idea but part of where I was going with my question is what does it have for a ring pack?
If the goal is to not disassemble the short block but it has very low tension rings are you ok with running a vacuum pump, as it seems to have had one previously based on the pulley/mandrel.
If deemed necessary to reduce compression I would just change the pistons or possibly machine some dome off the current pistons if that's an option.
Aside from the pushrod issue mentioned I would think it would be unfavorable to open up piston to chamber distance (I check with solder) and then you're going to need thicker intake gaskets which may not hold as well. Here is the spec sheet on the pistons that in the engine now:
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: cudaerik]
#3254217
08/28/24 03:58 AM
08/28/24 03:58 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 722 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
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super stock
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the compression ratios previously listen in this post is measured by a well know and professional engine builder. I got all the information from the engine builder and when I run them trough various compression calculators I get the same results. Everything may be dead on. And.... may be not. I like- trust but verify. Sure the math adds up, to a point. But if I recall correctly the builder didn't know what cam was in it. But knows all other details? Again, wouldn't be surprised if it measured out to what you were told. Also, wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. You're free to do as you wish of course. Just saying, if that was my engine, I would measure everything myself before I made any decisions to change it.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: INTMD8]
#3254219
08/28/24 05:03 AM
08/28/24 05:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 774 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
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super stock
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What rod length do you have in the engine ? I did a quick compression calculations making a few assumptions and don't come up with anything close to 13:1..
Deck Height 10.725 Head Volume 166 Gasket Bore 4.59 Gasket THK. 0.051 Stroke 4.15 Bore 4.40 Rod Length 7.10 Gasket volume 13.83 Piston Volume -92.4 Piston Comp. Height 1.500 Piston below deck(+) 0.050 Volume @ BDC 1133.49 Volume @ TDC 99.88 Compression 11.348
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: turbobitt]
#3254259
08/28/24 10:47 AM
08/28/24 10:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 774 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
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super stock
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I had a little more time to play with the numbers. I am still making assumptions but I brought the deck height down to "0" but still not getting 13:1 but close..... AG.
Deck Height 10.675 Head Volume 166 Gasket Bore 4.59 Gasket THK. 0.051 Stroke 4.15 Bore 4.40 Rod Length 7.10 Gasket volume 13.83 Piston Volume -92.4 Piston Comp. Height 1.500 Piston below deck(+) 0.000 Volume @ BDC 1121.04 Volume @ TDC 87.43 Compression 12.8
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: turbobitt]
#3254260
08/28/24 10:48 AM
08/28/24 10:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 106 Norway
cudaerik
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What rod length do you have in the engine ? I did a quick compression calculations making a few assumptions and don't come up with anything close to 13:1..
Deck Height 10.725 Head Volume 166 Gasket Bore 4.59 Gasket THK. 0.051 Stroke 4.15 Bore 4.40 Rod Length 7.10 Gasket volume 13.83 Piston Volume -92.4 Piston Comp. Height 1.500 Piston below deck(+) 0.050 Volume @ BDC 1133.49 Volume @ TDC 99.88 Compression 11.348
Rod lenght of 7.10”. Block is milled 0.025” so the deck height is 10.70”
1970 Plymouth Cuda, 512cid on 230 400 block, 5 speed manual.(TKO 600) 1970 Dodge Charger 500, 446cid, 5speed manual.(TKO 600) 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 383cid, 5speed manual (Tremec TKX)
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: cudaerik]
#3254297
08/28/24 01:18 PM
08/28/24 01:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 774 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 774
Southington Ct.
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What rod length do you have in the engine ? I did a quick compression calculations making a few assumptions and don't come up with anything close to 13:1..
Deck Height 10.725 Head Volume 166 Gasket Bore 4.59 Gasket THK. 0.051 Stroke 4.15 Bore 4.40 Rod Length 7.10 Gasket volume 13.83 Piston Volume -92.4 Piston Comp. Height 1.500 Piston below deck(+) 0.050 Volume @ BDC 1133.49 Volume @ TDC 99.88 Compression 11.348
Rod lenght of 7.10”. Block is milled 0.025” so the deck height is 10.70” Ok, with those numbers I get 12:1.. You could try and call JE with your piston info and maybe they can tell you if there is enough material to reconfigure the dome but you will still be in it for a rebalance ... AG. Deck Height 10.7 Head Volume 166 Gasket Bore 4.59 Gasket THK. 0.051 Stroke 4.15 Bore 4.40 Rod Length 7.10 Gasket volume 13.83 Piston Volume -92.4 Piston Comp. Height 1.500 Piston below deck(+) 0.025 Volume @ BDC 1127.27 Volume @ TDC 93.66 Compression 12.0
Last edited by turbobitt; 08/28/24 01:22 PM.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: 505 INDY MAX HEMI
[Re: INTMD8]
#3254467
08/29/24 06:44 AM
08/29/24 06:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,203 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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the compression ratios previously listen in this post is measured by a well know and professional engine builder. I got all the information from the engine builder and when I run them trough various compression calculators I get the same results. Everything may be dead on. And.... may be not. I like- trust but verify. Sure the math adds up, to a point. But if I recall correctly the builder didn't know what cam was in it. But knows all other details? Again, wouldn't be surprised if it measured out to what you were told. Also, wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. You're free to do as you wish of course. Just saying, if that was my engine, I would measure everything myself before I made any decisions to change it. x1000
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