Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: ZIPPY]
#3222863
03/26/24 11:17 AM
03/26/24 11:17 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,772 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,772
Holland MI Ottawa
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Manufacturers want their dealerships to be the ONLY one allowed with access to repair their cars- yet the dealerships no longer have techs that can diagnose. When a car gets beyond 5 years old corrosion and age mandate the ability to track down and troubleshoot. Instead they fire the parts cannon and make the customer pay knowing very well the root cause may not have been identified and fixed.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3222898
03/26/24 01:37 PM
03/26/24 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Try dealing with Tesla.
Friggin nightmare.
They do not have a viable wholesale parts program. It exists. Kinda. Just good enough to meet the letter of the law.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3222918
03/26/24 02:43 PM
03/26/24 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,380 St. Charles, MO
wingman
Uncreative Title
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Uncreative Title
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,380
St. Charles, MO
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Manufacturers want their dealerships to be the ONLY one allowed with access to repair their cars- yet the dealerships no longer have techs that can diagnose. When a car gets beyond 5 years old corrosion and age mandate the ability to track down and troubleshoot. Instead they fire the parts cannon and make the customer pay knowing very well the root cause may not have been identified and fixed. Yep this. Their hope is that if your service experience is bad enough, you will just say "the heck with it" and trade it in on a new one. Last year I dealt with a dealership--the young tech was in over his head. They wanted to throw $3500 worth of parts at it. About an hour on Google and Youtube and I fixed it myself with a $30 sensor and about 2 hours of my time.
1969 Dodge Coronet Super Bee 383 A4 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 440 FC7 (sold)
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3222927
03/26/24 03:49 PM
03/26/24 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108
Benton, IL.
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Manufacturers want their dealerships to be the ONLY one allowed with access to repair their cars- yet the dealerships no longer have techs that can diagnose. When a car gets beyond 5 years old corrosion and age mandate the ability to track down and troubleshoot. Instead they fire the parts cannon and make the customer pay knowing very well the root cause may not have been identified and fixed. All too true. Techs are getting worse and worse. And that's at over $100 an hour. Then the O.E.s don't want us to have access to parts and info to do it ourselves. Just a bad situation all the way around. Here in this rural area, we fortunately have a very good independent who is the go-to on domestic vehicles over 3 or 4 years old. At that point, there is more aftermarket support and information floating around than with the brand new stuff. Then there's this:
Master, again and still
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3222977
03/26/24 08:35 PM
03/26/24 08:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946
WI
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"And that's at over $100 an hour."
Please tell me you don't think the tech makes $100/hour. I know many techs that make damn good money but they don't make $100/hr. They bust their asses working on crap most guys on here wouldn't or couldn't touch. This new crap is ridiculous to repair and even with access to the information most would be lost without the programming equipment required anytime you touch anything on a late model car.
Touch the sideview mirror...needs calibration. Touch the bumper cover...calibrate. Replace the module...program, then calibrate. Error codes....reprogram the module. Replace rear brake pads....scanner to retract the pistons.Alignment...scanner to zero cal the steering angle sensor. The list goes on and on and on and on. We just spent almost 30k on equipment to calibrate forward facing cameras, radars, blind spot detection etc.
Last edited by Dcuda69; 03/26/24 08:38 PM.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3222978
03/26/24 08:36 PM
03/26/24 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566
Motor City
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I am not nor have I ever been an SAE certified mechanic. I have always repaired and worked on my own vehicles. I have never taken my vehicles in or paid to be repaired. One, could never afford it. Two, satisfying to fix it myself. It's a shame as high tech as everything is these days, they are more unreliable than ever.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: Dcuda69]
#3222980
03/26/24 08:46 PM
03/26/24 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514
N.E. OHIO, USA
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"And that's at over $100 an hour."
Please tell me you don't think the tech makes $100/hour. I know many techs that make damn good money but they don't make $100/hr. They bust their asses working on crap most guys on here wouldn't or couldn't touch. This new crap is ridiculous to repair and even with access to the information most would be lost without the programming equipment required anytime you touch anything on a late model car.
Touch the sideview mirror...needs calibration. Touch the bumper cover...calibrate. Replace the module...program, then calibrate. Error codes....reprogram the module. Replace rear brake pads....scanner to retract the pistons.Alignment...scanner to zero cal the steering angle sensor. The list goes on and on and on and on. We just spent almost 30k on equipment to calibrate forward facing cameras, radars, blind spot detection etc. So is it the dealership or the manufacture that makes or gets the money from dealership shop service work.? How much of the dealership service bill goes to the manufacture?
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3222982
03/26/24 08:54 PM
03/26/24 08:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946
WI
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"And that's at over $100 an hour."
Please tell me you don't think the tech makes $100/hour. I know many techs that make damn good money but they don't make $100/hr. They bust their asses working on crap most guys on here wouldn't or couldn't touch. This new crap is ridiculous to repair and even with access to the information most would be lost without the programming equipment required anytime you touch anything on a late model car.
Touch the sideview mirror...needs calibration. Touch the bumper cover...calibrate. Replace the module...program, then calibrate. Error codes....reprogram the module. Replace rear brake pads....scanner to retract the pistons.Alignment...scanner to zero cal the steering angle sensor. The list goes on and on and on and on. We just spent almost 30k on equipment to calibrate forward facing cameras, radars, blind spot detection etc. So is it the dealership or the manufacture that makes or gets the money from dealership shop service work.? How much of the dealership service bill goes to the manufacture? The dealer makes the money on customer pay repairs. The dealer gets paid on warranty repairs from the manufacture. A good tech likely makes $40-$50/hr flat rate.Don't forget....that tech has to maintain all his/her certifications and supply all his own tools(likely $50-$100k)
Last edited by Dcuda69; 03/26/24 08:57 PM.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: Dcuda69]
#3222987
03/26/24 09:08 PM
03/26/24 09:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514
N.E. OHIO, USA
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"And that's at over $100 an hour."
Please tell me you don't think the tech makes $100/hour. I know many techs that make damn good money but they don't make $100/hr. They bust their asses working on crap most guys on here wouldn't or couldn't touch. This new crap is ridiculous to repair and even with access to the information most would be lost without the programming equipment required anytime you touch anything on a late model car.
Touch the sideview mirror...needs calibration. Touch the bumper cover...calibrate. Replace the module...program, then calibrate. Error codes....reprogram the module. Replace rear brake pads....scanner to retract the pistons.Alignment...scanner to zero cal the steering angle sensor. The list goes on and on and on and on. We just spent almost 30k on equipment to calibrate forward facing cameras, radars, blind spot detection etc. So is it the dealership or the manufacture that makes or gets the money from dealership shop service work.? How much of the dealership service bill goes to the manufacture? The dealer makes the money on customer pay repairs. The dealer gets paid on warranty repairs from the manufacture. A good tech likely makes $40-$50/hr flat rate.Don't forget....that tech has to maintain all his/her certifications and supply all his own tools(likely $50-$100k) Then wouldn't it hurt the dealership's mechanic if the manufacture was FORCED to give away proprietary technologies that would at least insure that for a small part of dealer service work might come back to him? That seems to be the only thing the mechanic might be able to address at least during the manufacture's warranty period? From what I know the dealership labor rate for the most part is dictated by local and state laws and the DEALERSHIP due mostly to the costs of that dealer's "costs to do business". The costs at a Chevy dealer versus a Mercedes dealer I'm sure in your area are not the same.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3222991
03/26/24 09:24 PM
03/26/24 09:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946
WI
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"And that's at over $100 an hour."
Please tell me you don't think the tech makes $100/hour. I know many techs that make damn good money but they don't make $100/hr. They bust their asses working on crap most guys on here wouldn't or couldn't touch. This new crap is ridiculous to repair and even with access to the information most would be lost without the programming equipment required anytime you touch anything on a late model car.
Touch the sideview mirror...needs calibration. Touch the bumper cover...calibrate. Replace the module...program, then calibrate. Error codes....reprogram the module. Replace rear brake pads....scanner to retract the pistons.Alignment...scanner to zero cal the steering angle sensor. The list goes on and on and on and on. We just spent almost 30k on equipment to calibrate forward facing cameras, radars, blind spot detection etc. So is it the dealership or the manufacture that makes or gets the money from dealership shop service work.? How much of the dealership service bill goes to the manufacture? The dealer makes the money on customer pay repairs. The dealer gets paid on warranty repairs from the manufacture. A good tech likely makes $40-$50/hr flat rate.Don't forget....that tech has to maintain all his/her certifications and supply all his own tools(likely $50-$100k) Then wouldn't it hurt the dealership's mechanic if the manufacture was FORCED to give away proprietary technologies that would at least insure that for a small part of dealer service work might come back to him? That seems to be the only thing the mechanic might be able to address at least during the manufacture's warranty period? From what I know the dealership labor rate for the most part is dictated by local and state laws and the DEALERSHIP due mostly to the costs of that dealer's "costs to do business". The costs at a Chevy dealer versus a Mercedes dealer I'm sure in your area are not the same. My point is....even if manufactures are forced to make proprietary info available to all of us (which I support) doesn't mean we will be able to completely repair our cars without buying/updating/subscribing to computer hardware and software. Those costs can be very prohibitive especially for those that want to do a one time module diag/repair/replacement. Even if they make software available to you and I....would they have to make it compatible with your PC and mine? What happens when they change it next year(because they will)?
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3223005
03/26/24 10:07 PM
03/26/24 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,514
N.E. OHIO, USA
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I wonder where the money came from to make this video and where that RTR .com site is located. Those bib overalls are surely telling that ain't America, and can anyone identify any of those cars and note the non-North America license plates. The tire rack scene is confusing, are they saying you can't even replace tires (or is that tyres ) without the right to repair? There's a foreign scam here, maybe industrial espionage . Ok the bib coveralls was the first clue, then the funny foreign cars and license plates, then the aerial shot of the intersection without even one PICKUP truck and only cab over semis. And are they driving on the correct side of the road, I think NOT. The houses and the odd foreign car in the first image are surely not in North America IMO.
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: A12]
#3223033
03/27/24 07:14 AM
03/27/24 07:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,723 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,723
North Dakota
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I think we're getting too far in the weeds here. Should I have the right to diagnose the on board computers on my car? I think I do. Do I deserve to know how to troubleshoot the functionality of my car's systems (EFI, ABS, A/C, etc). I think I do. Do I need to know how internally they all work? Probably not.
Claiming that information to diagnose equipment is equivalent to proprietary information used to design equipment is a false equivalence, IMHO.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3223048
03/27/24 10:12 AM
03/27/24 10:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,846 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,846
S.E. Michigan
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Nice to see some passion about anything around here, and people who care enough to even respond whether we agree or not.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: ZIPPY]
#3223067
03/27/24 10:57 AM
03/27/24 10:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108
Benton, IL.
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No one is wanting proprietary engineering details. Just basic diagnostic access and replacement parts. There is a happy spot that will not jeopardize the O.E.'s ability to maintain their integrity while allowing owners and independents to service their products. Besides, who here believes that the other competing O.E.s do not reverse engineer anything of consequence anyway? Blue collar guys are the ONLY ones being held at arms length on this.
This is a battle for dollars, pure and simple. The O.E.s have failed miserably to earn our service and parts business. Just look at the width and breadth of the aftermarket parts suppliers. They have beaten the O.E.s at their own game.
So, after failing to EARN our parts and service business, they now seek to FORCE us to use them. And frankly, even if they were successful in FORCING us to use them, they couldn't handle the volume. They are short on EVERYTHING that they would need to accomplish it.
Master, again and still
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Re: Support Right To Repair
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3223128
03/27/24 12:48 PM
03/27/24 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,772 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,772
Holland MI Ottawa
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The average age of a car owned by an American is 12 years old. That means MANY cars are much older than that. (Yes many are newer as well- averages) The people who own a 12 year old car and older are probably living paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford the average auto repair which is around $600. The manufacturers are not giving an option- but forcing people to buy a new car. The same people who cannot afford a new car with cash and probably are a high risk to lend money to for a new car. A vicious unnecessary cycle. I really like cars and truck made between 99 and 2010. Modern enough to be comfy efficient and reliable- low tech enough to where I can still do the brakes suspension and maintenance- and low tech enough to where a competent independent shop can perform the complicated diags and repairs.
Last edited by 2boltmain; 03/27/24 12:52 PM.
Keep old mopars alive.
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