Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
#3217737
03/03/24 02:22 PM
03/03/24 02:22 PM
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moparacer
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Considering a cam change to more lift, that will warrant a spring height change, that will warrant a +050 lock, that will put the retainer pretty close to the T&D rocker setup I am running. Been there done that and don't like it. Usually aluminum in the oil filter from the retainers clearancing themselves is the result.
Anyways, my heads are set up with .060 PAC spring locators right now to get me to 1.950.
Naturally, PAC doesn't offer anything thinner, so I am machining something off at the seat to get there I am afraid.
What I am considering is taking some off the spring locators and some off the seats. Maybe .020 off the locators that should require .030 off the seats.
Anyone done something like that? Safe?
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: moparacer]
#3217813
03/03/24 07:17 PM
03/03/24 07:17 PM
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HardcoreB
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Considering a cam change to more lift, that will warrant a spring height change, that will warrant a +050 lock, that will put the retainer pretty close to the T&D rocker setup I am running. Been there done that and don't like it. Usually aluminum in the oil filter from the retainers clearancing themselves is the result.
Anyways, my heads are set up with .060 PAC spring locators right now to get me to 1.950.
Naturally, PAC doesn't offer anything thinner, so I am machining something off at the seat to get there I am afraid.
What I am considering is taking some off the spring locators and some off the seats. Maybe .020 off the locators that should require .030 off the seats.
Anyone done something like that? Safe?
I've taken some off the seat of both the SR and -1 heads maybe .010-.015" ...I'm not sure what the max # Indy recommends but it isn't much. It'll be real difficult to cut a spring locater because they are hard. What I found is the inner radius of the locater can interfere with the guide boss, which can free up some unexpected installed height. Motorsports Unlimited says he has a .040 locater that works but I haven't used them. You might consider using a 1.50" OD spring which might put the retainer about 1.40" PSI426DR works pretty good. This is one advantage of using the paired rocker system, it opens higher lift possibilities. The SR used a TD single-shaft and I was able to NET about .740" with the 1225PAC 1.52"? OD
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3217826
03/03/24 07:55 PM
03/03/24 07:55 PM
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moparacer
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Thanks Hardcore. I run the PSI424R spring on it with the PAC 104 locators and R405 retainers. The cam is puny lift wise. I only have .714 at the valve....
So setting them up at 1.950 got me to .086 CB with the 424R spring and the set I just took off had, lets just say a lot of passes lol.
Switching everything around will get expensive, and the 424R spring has been great for me.
The problem spot to me looks like it is on the intakes right at the top of the spring seat. Looks pretty thin there, and why I think I need to proceed with caution.
Probably call Indy tomorrow.
Last edited by moparacer; 03/03/24 07:57 PM.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: moparacer]
#3217881
03/03/24 10:47 PM
03/03/24 10:47 PM
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Posts: 9,986 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3217890
03/03/24 11:22 PM
03/03/24 11:22 PM
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AndyF
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I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut. It took some time trying different parts but I was able to get right at 2.100 installed height on my Indy EZ heads. I had to mix and match retainers and locks. I discovered that different brands measured things differently and that you couldn't trust the mfg specs.
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3217903
03/03/24 11:55 PM
03/03/24 11:55 PM
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moparacer
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Were the seats cut for the locators? If so then you might be at the limit. If not then you can probably safely remove .060.
I think machining the locators would be risky and they'd have a tendency to crack and chip.
Can't you find a stiffer spring with the same installed height that will handle that new lift? A triple spring maybe? It's not the spring pressure the 424 R should be plenty enough. Its 656lbs/in. It's the installed height to get my coil bind where I need it if I go in the upper .700s lift. I did some checking here tonight and a few of them are actually closer to 1.940, which puts me at .086 from coil bind. These springs have 1.14 coil bind. I would like lift somewhere in the upper .700s if I can get it. Talked to Tim at Bullet the other day and he said .768 (honestly I would like a little more) which would put me at .032 CB so I have to find some spring height somewhere unless I change everything. My -1's run Pac 1224 (1.625 dia.) springs at 1.950" with Pac locators that are .060 thick? I did skim cut some of the pockets to gain clearance. It has paired T&D 1.7 rockers. No clearance issues to the retainers. The heads were used when I bought them 13 years ago. Made over 1000 passes since. Doug DW have you ever measured how close the retainers are to the rockers? I run bushed T&D, maybe different? With my R405 retainers and +050 locks I can get 2 pieces of thick paper between them that measure .020 total. Feels like it might be .025 or so? I don't think I could fit a 1.625 spring on it. The DR425R is 1.525 and the R405 retainer is 1.450. Its a nice setup if I can get some more installed height. I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut. I have cups. And naturally they are .060 lol. I run a dual spring and I always like the ID locators that fit the inner to keep everything centered. If I ran cups on these springs the inner would be centered only by the spring itself. Don't like that. I need to call PSI tomorrow and see what locators they know of that will work with these springs. All I seem to see are the PAC S104. Its 1.55 .770 .635. I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut. It took some time trying different parts but I was able to get right at 2.100 installed height on my Indy EZ heads. I had to mix and match retainers and locks. I discovered that different brands measured things differently and that you couldn't trust the mfg specs. Oh great! So I might order something expecting it to work and it won't. On a side note, why is everything with locks and retainers in increments of .050? Seems to me .025 would be better so guys like me don't end up in installed height lala land.
Last edited by moparacer; 03/03/24 11:59 PM.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: dvw]
#3217919
03/04/24 07:38 AM
03/04/24 07:38 AM
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HardcoreB
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For gains in camshaft, you may need to upgrade the spring even at the same RPM. But, it's likely some gains will come with RPM/cam IMO. I was looking at some of the PAC 133x series which is an even shorter installed height but allow for .750-.800 NET They are pretty small O.D. and light so they'd be easy on the rockers and lifters too. What is the 'intensity' of the cam you have? Depending on what you're looking for, I may still have a 4/7 swap or 4/7 3/2 cam around. Or even a rocker system...
Last edited by HardcoreB; 03/04/24 07:40 AM.
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: moparacer]
#3217984
03/04/24 12:25 PM
03/04/24 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002 Oregon
AndyF
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Were the seats cut for the locators? If so then you might be at the limit. If not then you can probably safely remove .060.
I think machining the locators would be risky and they'd have a tendency to crack and chip.
Can't you find a stiffer spring with the same installed height that will handle that new lift? A triple spring maybe? It's not the spring pressure the 424 R should be plenty enough. Its 656lbs/in. It's the installed height to get my coil bind where I need it if I go in the upper .700s lift. I did some checking here tonight and a few of them are actually closer to 1.940, which puts me at .086 from coil bind. These springs have 1.14 coil bind. I would like lift somewhere in the upper .700s if I can get it. Talked to Tim at Bullet the other day and he said .768 (honestly I would like a little more) which would put me at .032 CB so I have to find some spring height somewhere unless I change everything. My -1's run Pac 1224 (1.625 dia.) springs at 1.950" with Pac locators that are .060 thick? I did skim cut some of the pockets to gain clearance. It has paired T&D 1.7 rockers. No clearance issues to the retainers. The heads were used when I bought them 13 years ago. Made over 1000 passes since. Doug DW have you ever measured how close the retainers are to the rockers? I run bushed T&D, maybe different? With my R405 retainers and +050 locks I can get 2 pieces of thick paper between them that measure .020 total. Feels like it might be .025 or so? I don't think I could fit a 1.625 spring on it. The DR425R is 1.525 and the R405 retainer is 1.450. Its a nice setup if I can get some more installed height. I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut. I have cups. And naturally they are .060 lol. I run a dual spring and I always like the ID locators that fit the inner to keep everything centered. If I ran cups on these springs the inner would be centered only by the spring itself. Don't like that. I need to call PSI tomorrow and see what locators they know of that will work with these springs. All I seem to see are the PAC S104. Its 1.55 .770 .635. I have .030 spring cups for my PAC triples. So somebody out there may have them in your size? I also used +.100 retainers and +.050 locks to end up at 2.070 on the intakes, heads uncut. It took some time trying different parts but I was able to get right at 2.100 installed height on my Indy EZ heads. I had to mix and match retainers and locks. I discovered that different brands measured things differently and that you couldn't trust the mfg specs. Oh great! So I might order something expecting it to work and it won't. On a side note, why is everything with locks and retainers in increments of .050? Seems to me .025 would be better so guys like me don't end up in installed height lala land. When I was sorting this stuff out I ordered a bunch of single retainers rather than full sets. I built a spreadsheet that kept track of all of the information. I'll attach a copy.
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3218049
03/04/24 03:56 PM
03/04/24 03:56 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Andy, what is the last column(tool) referencing?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3218060
03/04/24 04:22 PM
03/04/24 04:22 PM
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When I was sorting this stuff out I ordered a bunch of single retainers rather than full sets. I built a spreadsheet that kept track of all of the information. I'll attach a copy. Thanks. That's actually a good idea in the long run to avoid having several sets laying around you will never use. I have springs locks and retainers cups and all sorts of stuff I bought and never used that I need to put on the marketplace, from this deal over the years. Andy, what is the last column(tool) referencing? Dwayne, I can't remember, it's been quite a few years, but do you happen to remember me talking to you about this setup several years back? I think I did? Was breaking stuff and you pointed me in the direction of Motorsports Unlimited I think? To a guy that got me set up with the valve springs and parts? God I been so many directions over the years with this I lost track, but I thought you told me what I needed and where to get it. And it worked. Apologies if I am mistaken.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3218139
03/04/24 08:40 PM
03/04/24 08:40 PM
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Here is a picture of the retainer measuring tool that I made. I found that retainers from different mfgs had different installed heights. There isn't a spec for retainers so I made a tool with a 10 degree taper that allows me to measure the different retainers. And I see it with this setup I am fooling with right now Andy. So I set one up at 1.950. Switch to a +.050 lock....614 Comps. Around 2.00 Right? Noooope. Now we are +.070 setting at 2.020...I can see + or - .005 or so but .020? Since these are PAC retainers maybe I should try locks from PAC? Maybe I get a true .050 and gain some rocker clearance I was worried about originally. When I checked it the other night I didn't realize I was getting .070.
Last edited by moparacer; 03/04/24 08:42 PM.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: moparacer]
#3218140
03/04/24 09:02 PM
03/04/24 09:02 PM
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CSK
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you might talk to Mike at B3racing, the geometry correction he uses moves the rocker away from the retainer
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Cutting spring seats on 440-1 heads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3218175
03/04/24 11:15 PM
03/04/24 11:15 PM
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OK so I dug out some old comp tool steel retainers I had on it before and tested them with the locks. 1.955 and with the +.050 2.05.... So the PAC retainers and Comp locks dont like each other, just like you said. In PAC's catalog it says this about the locks... We have standardized the spring retainer “cone style” to improve specifying the fitment into a matching PAC Racing retainer. That sounds like some Chinese garbled english saying we took 10 degree locks and retainers and made them not quite 10 degree..... And then I noticed on Summit, the PAC R405 retainer is listed as a +.050? Really? Its not listed as a +.050 in PAC's catalog......So which is it? .050 +.050 still doesn't add up to .070 Put a little bigger cam in it I thought......Just change the installed height I thought......Silly me thinking this might be easy.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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