this is the best 'before (above) and after (below)' pic I have from the ultrasonic cleaning. Besides just being 'cleaner/shinier' I'm not sure how much of a difference it actually makes...but I'm certain it doesn't hurt -



disassembling/cleaning/reassembling lifters is not a fast process, and this is my early morning 'office' for a couple weeks -



oh and hey - these are the very best latex gloves you'll ever find - for sure the very best I've ever used...by a wide margin - 13mil, very thick, very strong, cleanable and re-usable - the absolute VERY best I've ever used - https://www.amazon.com/GLOVEWORKS-D...&hvtargid=pla-305438590240&psc=1

While your at it you might want to change out the wire retailers with snap rings. Just bought a set of Johnson Magnum lifters and they have snap rings.

Ok - all the lifters cleaned up nicely...at least as best I can determine they did. All were 'stuck', all came apart, all cleaned up nicely, all the parts and rollers looked good, all are reassembled, and now all have a bit of 'squish', settling up against the clips.

So - lifter preload. I'm going with a Comp Cams bump stick (new core, not a re-grind), all else is stock-OE - stock non-adjustable rockers, stock push rods, stock everything. My question now is...with nothing 'adjustable'...do I need to 'care' about lifter preload? Other than getting different length push rods can I even do anything about it? Or just bolt it all up and 'go'?

In order to even check preload I presume I'd need a single solid lifter (...suppose I can make one...), put some marking blue on a valve tip, then bolt everything up and check the 'drag marks', and if it's nice n short and hopefully 'centered' then use the existing push rods...right? If it's got long drag marks then I'd need to address custom length push rods? Then, shove feeler gauges in-between the rocker tips and valves and that's the pre-load? Is that something I even need to worry about? I suppose with a non-OE cam in there the answer could be 'yes, and that's why you need to measure the pre-load'...or I can also suppose the answer is 'nope - won't matter - the lifters will handle any difference between the OE cam and Comp cam'.

- Sam

so the engine is together and running, and I think I discovered something interesting about the lifters...specifically regarding oil. I fired up the engine with 10W40 break-in oil, but I noticed what sounded like excessive valvetrain 'chatter', and I thought 'on no - seems I was unlucky reusing the lifters. Pulled the valve cover and all rockers were tight. Long story short, I remembered reading about how picky the Hemi's can be with their oil, so I drained the 10W40 and put in regular 10W30, which is spec per the manual....and I have to say the engine is indeed quieter. It may indeed be likely that the slightly thicker oil was preventing the lifters from getting full prime, or it may have simply been that the extra break-in lube and such was also preventing the oil from getting fully 'into' the lifters...but either way I'll be sticking with 10W30 from now on.

on hindsight I would make that upgrade if I were to ever be that far back into the engine

So...back to an annoying but potentially serious item - engine noise. There still seems to be excessive lifter chatter (or something else?) coming from my '02 Magnum 360 (video below).

Engine had ~125k miles on it, stored it for 3 years, then I 'restored' it - not a full rebuild but took it down to the rear main seal and refreshed all the gaskets. Cleaned the heads, new/bigger Comp 'truck' cam (#20-745-9: 212-218 (264/270), .480/.480, on a 114* LSA). Disassembled/sonic-cleaned the roller lifters, and with 10W30 in it it's sounded 'chattery'. On a recommendation I installed .036 longer pushrods, but alas that didn't eliminate the chatter.

In the above reply I'd poured in 10W30, which I thought was helpful but after a short while it wasn't, and my oil pressure was dipping into the high teens at hot idle - not awesome. So with nothing really to lose I poured in 5 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20w50 and it got (and remained) noticeably quieter tho still more noisy than I like; oil pressure almost doubled at hot idle (bearings still have 125k miles on 'em so ok). Does not appear to burn oil nor smell like oil out the pipe.

The thicker oil definitely decreased the chatter...and upped the oil pressure at hot idle (good). So...I'm thinking the thicker oil simply provided more 'padding' around the lifters...which may simply indicate the lifters are just wore out......maybe (?).

Found two intake manifold leaks so the intake is back off...and I have a decision to make - replace the lifters with new.....or is the noise 'normal' for a Magnum, especially considering it has a Performer RPM intake on it (which as I understand can 'transmit' a lot more engine noise than the stock kegger).

While it's apart I am intending to pull the valve covers and check the pushrod length to make sure it's spot on.

Appreciate any comments.

https://youtu.be/kr2_KfWM4vQ

I bought a 93 Dakota with a 3.9 Magnum new.
Noisy valvetrain from day one.
Thrashed away noisely for 25 years and 150,000 miles.
Never took a valve cover off……. Never had an issue.

Mine was much quieter on 20/50 than 10/30…….. but still pretty noisy.

Last I knew it was still running fine.

In your situation……. I’d say, turn up the radio and drive it.

...well...I've been calling around, and the consensus is that it pretty much has to be the lifters - not that they're 'broken' or damaging anything...just simply worn out, and causing some internal slapping around and/or lose spring pressures or such. Now...I also understand that the Comp Cam I have is I think a 'High Energy' series stick, and as such it with the higher ramp rate it might cause some additional lifter noise, but all indications point to 'worn lifters'.

With all this in mind I've been getting several additional opinions from places including Hughes Engines and Scram Speed, and with a lot of unawesome lifters out there I had to dig for the good stuff, and that led me to...wait for it...Top Line Automotive/Hy-Lift Johnson, which coincidentally is where I got a set of replacement lifters for a noisy 440 (which did indeed eliminate the chatter, which was indeed coming from the lifters). I was going to order a set of #5006 lifters from Hughes (who sells Hy-Lift Johnson lifters) but they had two versions, including a high-performance 'quiet' slow-leak down set #5006S, but they first recommended I call HLJ to ask about the differences and how well they would work for my 'truck' application. So I called HLJ, and they informed me that there is yet another lifter they sell - same as the 5006S but with an additional feature - an additional oil feed port direct onto the roller bearings (of which I thought 'yes, please'). These HLJ lifters, #2269SE, are direct replacement lifters for the Viper V10, which very conveniently also happen to be direct-fit lifters for the Magnum V6 and V8 engines...and yah I nicely asked them to put a set of 'em in a box for me . Granted, my 360 won't be turning the rpms of a Viper V10...but it will be spending a lot of time at very low rpms when rock crawling, and having that extra oil port lubricating the rollers can't never ever be a bad thing, like ever. They also offered a military discount and I got them for $34 each, which for anyone shopping around is really not bad at all. USA made, good reputation, and all the features of slow leak-down, and direct oiling - win-win.

So, those will be going in soon, and I'm hopeful they will all but cure the (alleged) lifter chatter I've been experiencing

I’ll be looking forward to hearing the outcome.

so one thing about Magnum engines is...it's almost impossible to get the lifters out unless you pull the heads (more specifically the head gaskets). There's a section of the head gasket that has the holes in it for the pushrod, which makes it nearly impossible to get the lifters out - the lifters need about 1/8-1/4" more distance before they'll come out, and forcing them past the gasket would probably scratch the lifters - for sure would scratch the spendy brand-new ones trying to cram them in the bores....but I employed a very simple solution - grab a fresh set of tin snips, cut away the head gasket material, and they pop right out! My new V10 lifters arrive today so I should be able to drop 'em right in :thumbsup:

This is the area of interference -




Cut this section of the head gasket out - problem solved, and no need to pull the heads 👍 . Yah you lose the alignment holes, but who really needs those anyway...

I first thought you were making a Rev Kit for that

...don't know what a rev kit is but otherwise, nope

The only constant in the universe is that it will always be 'something'. Going to button up the rockers etc, following the service manual...and it says to install the alignment yokes (lifter retainers) with the ARROW towards the camshaft......but...what 'arrow'?...and ARROW is in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS...like it's important n stuff m'kay...



...but naturally...I don't see any arrow on the yokes - I see numbers...but not arrows...not on the pushrod or cam side - nada except for numbers, and they only seem to go one way...which naturally begs the question of...WTH...? Everything was OE in this engine, and while I can't see any difference between up or down...I was planning to install them with the numbers reading up vs down...otherwise I don't see any kind of arrows. Anyone know what's up? They look like all the other yokes I'm seeing online - don't appear to be Chevy or Ford etc....



Meanwhile, the V10 lifters are nice - even have the HD retainer snap ring from the factory. Soaked 'em in oil, and dropped 'em in - really hoping these make a nice reduction in the the sewing machine 'chatter' I've been hearing in this engine.

Since the lifter retainers (yokes) are directly above the cam, wouldn't any arrow have to point downward and be located on the side? Is this an "arrow?" (circled in red)

I looked and that looks to be just a casting groove...but I was really curious!

I talked with a couple shops including Hughes, and they said the arrows used to be on the yokes, but the later years didn't have any arrows and the yokes were interchangeable, so I'm just going to install them with the numbers facing up.

alright - think I have the pushrod mystery solved.

First...is appears the problem the whole time was...wait for it...pushrods too long. The new V10 lifters went in just fine, but when I installed the valvetrain I noticed something very not awesome - the pushrods were 'contacting' the snap rings at the top of the lifters - the preload was so deep that the angle of the pushrods into the lifters was so far in that they contact the snap rings - even bent in a couple of the tabs (with the snap rings facing up - a pure coincidence - I'd never have noticed it if the horse shoe hadn't just happened to be facing up).


Well that's not awesome, so I contacted Dave at Top Line (and sent a couple pics of the 'contact'), and he and his tech folks indicated that there was way way too much preload. So, I put a fresh battery in my dial calipers and did my best to measure it, and if I measured correctly or even close to correctly...my lifter preload is .167 ...and my research indicates it's supposed to be in the .030 range, so it's about .137 too much preload - that over 1/8" too long.

As I understand, lifter preload is the distance the push rod socket depresses into the internal lifter bore before the rocker arm gets tight (pic below).


This is how I measured that distance: I started the rocker arm bolt, threaded it in until there was no slack between the pushrod and the lifter socket, and then measured how far the pushrod/socket 'travelled' before the rocker bolt got tight - it went .167 , which as I'm seeing is a whole lot.



My current pushrods measured out at 6.941 (which are the new rods that are .036 longer than stock (6.905 I think is the OE length)), which with the new Comp cam (and presumed lower base circle) I installed because we thought the rods would be too short. Apparently that was not the case, and was apparently an overcorrection. The original rods were 6.905, but, with .167 preload and a target of .030, I need to get rods that are .137 shorter, or 6.804.

I hoped my calculated eyeball math indicated a 6.800" pushrod would do the trick...and I think I was right. Got a pushrod checker (Speedmaster 401.1001 - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SDM-PCE401-1001), and at zero lash on a couple different holes the checker measured out between 6.759-6.763 , which with an additional .037-.041 will equal 6.800, and I am near certain that is within the preload spec for these magnum lifters (they said .030, and that was essentially an 'average'), and is also well below .075 preload which is how far the preload has to be for the pushrods to contact the snap ring clips. Soon as I get the e-mail back from the Top Line tech folks to confirm my math I'll be ordering a nice simple set of off-the-shelf-in-stock Comp Cams #7632-16 6.800 pushrods (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7632-1), which should make my valvetrain a lot happier...and hopefully a lot quieter too.

Bottom Line - get a pushrod checker and don't guess like I did - know.

Happy Motoring!

- Sam

well...the 'musical lifters' saga continues. It's always 'something' so I shouldn't be surprised...but this squarely falls into the 'well that's just strange' department...and I'm hoping it's a V10 vs V8 thing...

First off, I got the Comp Cams 6.800 pushrods, #7632 (289/302 Ford btw), and they installed just dandy - preload looks to be in the .030-.050 range, and in this hydraulic lifter equation I'm calling that 'good enough'.

But...(there's always a 'but'...)...I noticed there is a similar but less invasive 'interference' issue with the lifters' snap ring retainers and the pushrods...and I'll do my best to 'splain what I'm seeing, lifter functionality, and what I did.

BLUF: I'm using the V10 lifters, but with the V8 retainer clips - not the HD snap rings.

I am making the presumption that 'nothing should 'contact' anything else in the valve train equation. On the base circle everything is fine - the snap rings can rotate around in their grooves and no contact. But, with a lifter up on a cam lobe and the plunger all the way 'in' (engine not running/lifters 'bled down'/not filled with oil, etc), the angle is higher between the lifter and pushrod, and the snap ring cannot rotate all the way around without contacting the pushrod.

On a lobe, plunger all the way in, snap ring eyelets facing down - the arrow is where the interference happens when I rotate the snap rings around -


But rotate the snap ring up and around...and it runs smack into the pushrod...which can't be right...but again, these are Viper V10 lifters...


Now as I understand, with the engine running and the lifter(s) on the base circle, the lifters will fill with oil, filling the plunger area, and because the oil cannot bleed out quickly the resulting oil-filled lifter can overcome the valve spring pressure when ramping up, thus opening the valve, and repeats the process all the time (I don't really understand what the preload value is really for but one neuronal synapses at a time). But, when the engine is shut off...any lifter up on a lobe will initially hang the valve 'open'...and the lifter will very slowly lose oil prime within itself, allowing the valve spring to 'push' out the oil, allowing the valve to close all the way...which also pushes the plunger deeper into the lifter. If the snap rings end up with the eyelets facing 'down' then no problem, but, my concern is this - if a snap ring rotates in it's groove and ends up with the eyelets facing 'up', when the engine is shut off the pushrod will initially be fine...until the lifter bleeds down...and the pushrod will literally get wedged against the snap ring, like this -


In my mind that is simply unacceptable, and frankly I'm amazed the Mopar engineers allowed it to happen.

All I can figure is the Viper V10 engines (heads, rockers, valve train geometry, etc.) are different enough - something about the V10s have less of an angle difference between the centerline of the lifters and pushrods, that this is not an issue, but on a magnum V8, it obviously 'is'.

So - I removed the HD snap ring retainers and replaced them with the OE standard duty clips, and my assessment is that while the same interference issue can likely happen, the lighter retainer clips can flex a little and 'absorb' any intermittent interference issues that might happen, whereas the snap rings, cannot.

I don't know how else to do it, and I cannot see any way in which there can be 'zero interference'. It'd be great if there was a small ridge on the 'bottom' of the lifter snap ring groove to disable the snap rings from rotating in their grooves up and facing up - a 'stop' like that would prevent the snap rings from rotating more than a few degrees, but there isn't.

Out with the snap rings - didn't even unbolt everything - just popped 'em out and plyer'd 'em apart and into the trash -


...and installed the standard non-sexy clips -


Meantime, primed the engine and oil is soaking each rocker, so that's good -

Way too much preload. They will never touch those HD clips if preload is right. They should just barely push the lifter in .030 and your looks more like .300

...when on the base circle, right? In this case they'll never touch unless the lifter is on a lobe and the engine isn't running and the lifters have bled out - that is the only situation where it can happen, but it sure looks like it can happen...

...I just rechecked the pushrod length and zero lash = 6.764, plus .036 = 6.800, and I've been assuming my 6.8" pushrods were exactly 6.8", but I just measured 4 of them and they actually measure out to ~6.817-6.821....so my preload is apparently ~.057-.072.... - nice to know things aren't exactly as advertised . Melling sells a set of 6.792 rods...



Which picture are you looking at? It's definitely not .3 on the base circle...but apparently it is ~ .057...but on a lobe with the lifter bled out they're in about as far as the lift...and that is the only situation where 'this' is a problem

Naturally 'no one has ever come across this', and while I have a high attention to detail I can't be the only one that's ever noticed this. Otherwise I'm at my wit's end. Nothing is that 'different' in this engine - no exotic voodoo or such. The only explanation is the rockers aren't the OE units and mine look just like OE units...good grief...

I'm going to return the Comp rods and try a set of Melling MPR-667 (6.792) - maybe they'll be the proper length...

Once they have primed they won't go to the bottom ever again. They will bleed but not all the way.

you're saying when the engine is shut down the valves won't close all the way on any lifter up on a cam lobe? - that the lifter oil cavity will bleed out some but not as much as what I'm seeing here in the pics and that it will close 'some' but not all the way? I wonder how far they will go before stopping/how much lift will remain 'open'. If that is the case then what I'm seeing is probably moot, which is very comforting. Regardless I'm going to get shorter pushrods, but this is an interesting study either way.