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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: dvw]
#3212233
02/09/24 03:46 PM
02/09/24 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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Not saying they are, however I am saying threads like this is why some people feel that way.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212275
02/09/24 07:06 PM
02/09/24 07:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,164
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,164
PA.
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As for another canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head....HAH...Who is gonna buy it? A select few possible in my case without and accompanying block that can be taken to 4.600 bore at least what's the point? We already have a head like that which are slightly more common than unicorn teeth at the track.
Who would buy canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head that flowed over 400 CFM for around $3000 price range ...... Hmmm It can be done and was done in another crowd.... AG. Yeah SBC..We run them and in as cast for they are 100% useless.....If you want a couple sheet metal intakes for them hit me up as I have a few that need a new home. Again as stated WHO would buy one for a MOPAR........You cannot even buy a GOOD race head for that that is usefule for a BBM for $4k. Again reenforcing the ideal that Mopar guys are CHEAP.....If it aint damn near free they have no interest in go fast parts. Man I get so tired of hearing this. You Al better than anyone should know this is a stupid statement. If we are so cheap why are we willingly paying the Mopar tax.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#3212282
02/09/24 07:35 PM
02/09/24 07:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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Frankly if you are building a half assed serious race engine it don't matter what brand it is.. At least in my world they are. When I call CP for a set of pistons they don't say oh snap a Mopar that's more money, GRP Oliver Crower and Carriilo etc same thing. Bullet does not upcharge me for a Mopar cam. Granted on occasion cores can be an issue but they can be with anything these days...just seems no one wants to acknowledge that fact. The main difference is choices for the others. But as in my example I don't pay more for a Mopar set of pistons over a BBC set of pistons. The one thing that is minimally cheaper is an aftermarket block. The second difference is the secondary market. But if you start will a blank page and buy NEW parts the costs are not that dissimilar. One might even be able to argue it is cheaper to build a 700HP BB Mopar than a BBC. Neither stock block is really up to the task. But a -1 top end with good cam and compression in a stock block can EASILY get there. I know I have done it with both. I also acknowledge that at a certain point you do not have a Mopar option to get to certain HP points NA anyway, likely because there is no market for it. Nor can you pick up the phone an order a BBM from anyone of a number of suppliers as you can with a BBC. Nor do you have options currently for iron blocks for a BBM, the latter is a big issue IMO but I assume no one has stepped up because there is not enough of a market for such a product. Well unless it was $1500  then MAYBE some will buy one. There are aluminum options and if you campar it to the BBC versions the price difference ios nominal and im some cases equal to a BBC
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212352
02/09/24 11:33 PM
02/09/24 11:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,673
On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,673
On the parachute mount
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Frankly if you are building a half assed serious race engine it don't matter what brand it is.. At least in my world they are. When I call CP for a set of pistons they don't say oh snap a Mopar that's more money, GRP Oliver Crower and Carriilo etc same thing. Bullet does not upcharge me for a Mopar cam. Granted on occasion cores can be an issue but they can be with anything these days...just seems no one wants to acknowledge that fact. The main difference is choices for the others. But as in my example I don't pay more for a Mopar set of pistons over a BBC set of pistons. The one thing that is minimally cheaper is an aftermarket block. The second difference is the secondary market. But if you start will a blank page and buy NEW parts the costs are not that dissimilar. One might even be able to argue it is cheaper to build a 700HP BB Mopar than a BBC. Neither stock block is really up to the task. But a -1 top end with good cam and compression in a stock block can EASILY get there. I know I have done it with both. I also acknowledge that at a certain point you do not have a Mopar option to get to certain HP points NA anyway, likely because there is no market for it. Nor can you pick up the phone an order a BBM from anyone of a number of suppliers as you can with a BBC. Nor do you have options currently for iron blocks for a BBM, the latter is a big issue IMO but I assume no one has stepped up because there is not enough of a market for such a product. Well unless it was $1500 then MAYBE some will buy one. There are aluminum options and if you campar it to the BBC versions the price difference ios nominal and im some cases equal to a BBC What have I missed ? LMAO ! It cost money
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3212453
02/10/24 12:28 PM
02/10/24 12:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
moparacer
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
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If I was given a nice stash of cash I wouldn't invest a dime into a new Mopar head. I might possibly be willing to fund the development of a cast iron block though. I know roughly what I'd do. It would be a low deck, 4.500 bore, stock replacement type block but with cross bolted 440 size mains. Probably some tweaks on the oiling system but that would be about it. I'd wave some money at Dart to see if they would handle the casting and machine work since their stuff tends to be really nice. I'd probably lose my shirt on the deal but if it was lottery money I wouldn't care too much.
I see no reason for a new head. TF240 is the perfect street head, Indy 440-1 is a great race head. NA guys who want to make more power are few and far between.
I do think I'd need to spend some money to also tool up a really good low deck intake since the market is a bit thin in that area, and I might go ahead and cast a really good set of valve covers since nobody has managed to do that. Put me on the waiting list!
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3212454
02/10/24 12:28 PM
02/10/24 12:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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Sounds like you need to change suppliers...OR you got a shelf piston for the BBC.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212460
02/10/24 12:45 PM
02/10/24 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163
Plymouth, MI
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Nor do you have options currently for iron blocks for a BBM, the latter is a big issue IMO but I assume no one has stepped up because there is not enough of a market for such a product. Do you not like the Callies/Energy one, or is it just because there is no other competition in the market? I just bought one, it showed up in a couple weeks and so far looks ok but I've been warned the lifter bores are tight, and it's still going to need a light decking and finish hone. I figured 700 hp on motor + nitrous was gonna kill a stock block eventually and instead of being cheap I wanted to do it once and do it correctly. Like you pointed out, it's about the only real area where we have to pay the Mopar tax, there isn't a more economical iron block option. Building a new motor from scratch I definitely see your points, the cost really isn't drastically different, especially going with made in USA stuff. Pistons, cranks, rods, cams, bearings, valvetrain, etc are all closer (or the same) to Chevy prices than I thought they would be. The only area where it seems the Chevy/Ford stuff is substantially cheaper is in the Chinese knockoff market, where they have more options to choose from... especially for SBC/LS/SBF. I also agree that the stock replacement BBM head market is saturated, there are plenty of options with arguably too much overlap.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3212475
02/10/24 01:38 PM
02/10/24 01:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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Is it a Hemi block or a wedge block. I have not looked recently but las time I did I only saw Hemi blocks?!? We occasionally get someone who wants an iron block. Not all that often so its been awhile.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212488
02/10/24 02:08 PM
02/10/24 02:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,493
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,493
So. Burlington, Vt.
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My guess is, the TF240 copy will replace the RPM copy that is offered by several suppliers.
I doubt the cost from the Chinese foundry would be much more for the new casting.
I’d be very surprised if the TF240 isn’t the most sought after std port BBM head for a HP build currently.
I’d also be surprised if the sales numbers for the RPM copies(along with the actual RPM’s) haven’t seen a decline in unit sales in the last few years.
At the time the RPM copies arrived on the scene, they were the most popular BBM on the market.
When the TF was introduced, it upped the ante for that segment………so that’s what’s being copied now.
Is there really a “need” for the copies? Not really………but I’ll bet they sell piles of them.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212490
02/10/24 02:10 PM
02/10/24 02:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163
Plymouth, MI
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Both wedge and hemi now, I think the hemi was first but you can get wedges as well. 4.31" or 4.49" finish bore, they're $6k currently from a couple different suppliers. I don't think they have enough meat to go to 4.6" bore, and they don't offer a 4.9" bore space version, but at that point I don't think anyone would want a cast iron block anyway.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3212571
02/10/24 07:06 PM
02/10/24 07:06 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,966
Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,966
Apollo, PA.
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Sounds like you need to change suppliers...OR you got a shelf piston for the BBC. That's what I mean 18* bbc is shelf b1 is custom because of a valve pocket?
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3212853
02/11/24 07:19 PM
02/11/24 07:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
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Sounds like you need to change suppliers...OR you got a shelf piston for the BBC. That's what I mean 18* bbc is shelf b1 is custom because of a valve pocket? The market for B1 pistons is relatively small. I think Icon might be one of the few companies that offer a shelf piston for a B1 from memory. No one is going to go to the trouble of doing a run of pistons that could possibly sit on the shelf for ages, It's dead money.
Alan Jones
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3213008
02/12/24 01:16 PM
02/12/24 01:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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I could not tell you the last time I ordered a shelf poiston for ANYTHING of any make. To get he most out of a combo a shelf piston diesnt really cut it. And that is my point. Shelf pistons are for stock rebuilds not racecars.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Thelma133]
#3216782
02/28/24 11:24 AM
02/28/24 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932
Finalnd, Perkele
jyrki
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932
Finalnd, Perkele
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I think there are more than enough options at the market now. Different sizes, different power levels up to around 1200 hp. The market is so small, that I don't think there is room for more. No one at the moment is going to reinvent the wheel, and make a head that will be a head above the others. That being said, It's a pity that the FBS heads weren't developed more. I have had two sets, and just got a third one. We are goig to try if we can get something out of them. The intake ports are smaller than B1's, yet they flow better. Got 440 cfm with 2.30" intake valves homeported. Now we'll test with a more knowledgable guy i we can refine one with 2.40" valves. They could be the best true wedge style head design around.
Plynouth VIP '67 TT IC EFI
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: jyrki]
#3216830
02/28/24 02:38 PM
02/28/24 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
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I agree the market is very small.
That being said, and since there is no water running through BB why not just come up with a "clean Sheet" head like a scaled up W8 (or Heaven forbid an LS3 (perfect port size for a 440) or BB Chevy style "non siamese" port that you could just use a Hemi cam with? Something like the Cleveland Ford CHI (or a scaled down predator) that flows 400CFM with great port velocity would be really cool. Just make it adapt to either an RB or Hemi exhaust port/placement
And Just sell the heads and a manifold as a package...one stop shopping.
At a minimum I would love so see a Scaled up W style head that has the valves on the bore centerline (Like a B1) with maybe a few degrees of cant in them similar to some of the best Ford/SBC stuff out there.
The bottom line is the generation big blocks appeal to is dying off, just like flatheads and Dynaflows. Not only that, Car culture in general has fewer and fewer spending more and more to keep things going.
Last edited by Streetwize; 02/28/24 02:40 PM.
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Streetwize]
#3217001
02/29/24 11:33 AM
02/29/24 11:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Most Mopar guys are cheap. I’m cheap.
Whats funny is people will complain you can’t build anything because it’s too expensive, but talk about how great of a deal 20K crate engines available to other people are. Most of you jokers wouldn’t spend 20K anyway, even if you did wear bowties.
There is no “Mopar Tax.” There is a Chevy discount, that is all. Stop kidding yourselves.
Theres LOTS of cheap Chevy guys too (see the popularity of the small block Chevy for evidence), but there are more Chevy guys, and therefore more who aren’t cheap.
Thinking about this more, maybe the Trick Flow knock offs will help drive more affordable blocks, because if they work as good as the TF heads it will put more people in the range of block busting power (especially if they offer a MW version). Probably not, but maybe. I know pulling the caps on my 500 HP 440 scared me a bit when I saw some fretting on them, even with ARP main studs. But I have some TF 270s ready to install sometime soon.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 02/29/24 11:41 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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