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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Uberpube] #3211786
02/07/24 11:18 PM
02/07/24 11:18 PM
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California, U.S.A.
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Torquemonster440 Offline
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Originally Posted by Uberpube
Originally Posted by metallicareload
T&D machine can make their rockers out of steel if the customer requests it drive

Hmm, I looked all over and asked around and didn't see that they did that back then.. I had a line on some ported and worked over victors when I was starting my build, but ended up waiting for the TF270's to come out so I could use standard location steel rockers.


What rockers did you wind up using with the 270's ?


1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Torquemonster440] #3211804
02/08/24 12:16 AM
02/08/24 12:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
mopar
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Southern Alberta
Originally Posted by Torquemonster440
Originally Posted by Uberpube
Originally Posted by metallicareload
T&D machine can make their rockers out of steel if the customer requests it drive

Hmm, I looked all over and asked around and didn't see that they did that back then.. I had a line on some ported and worked over victors when I was starting my build, but ended up waiting for the TF270's to come out so I could use standard location steel rockers.


What rockers did you wind up using with the 270's ?


Comp pro magnums with a B3 racing correction kit.

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Torquemonster440] #3211805
02/08/24 12:16 AM
02/08/24 12:16 AM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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I can give my report on rockers. Paired T&D aluminum 1.7, 310/805 pressure. Purchased used in 2012. I don't know their previous history. But they've been on my stuff for a little over1000 passes.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 02/08/24 08:46 AM.
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Uberpube] #3211809
02/08/24 12:52 AM
02/08/24 12:52 AM
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Posts: 268
Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload Offline
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Anchorage, Alaska
Pretty sure I saw it in their catalog, especially after I had a few "incidents" with aluminum rockers


440, 4-Speed, 3.54
1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: metallicareload] #3211827
02/08/24 05:03 AM
02/08/24 05:03 AM
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Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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The Jesel aluminium rocker kit for the TF270 heads is nice, I've machined a couple of pairs of heads for them now.


Alan Jones
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: AndyF] #3211828
02/08/24 06:27 AM
02/08/24 06:27 AM
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Southington Ct.
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turbobitt Offline
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Southington Ct.
Originally Posted by AndyF
Yeah, the SR-71 is a cool deal. I'm getting close to running mine on the dyno. From what I've seen so far, the combination of a factory 460 block and a set of SR-71 heads is a pretty easy way to make some serious power. Not as easy as with a BB Chevy, but I think it is easier than with a BB Mopar. The 429-460 engine doesn't have as many fans as the BB Mopar though. They didn't put them in very many muscle cars so the total market size is much smaller.


Please share the results on this one !!
AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: turbobitt] #3211841
02/08/24 07:56 AM
02/08/24 07:56 AM
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NW Indiana
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fbs63 Offline
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NW Indiana
Honestly if you want big power at a reasonable price buy 3-4 year old alcohol hemi parts. Most of it is billet, they don't damage them as often as fuel parts and the NHRA guys are always stepping up to the latest parts. Check out Insidetopalcohol.com. Lots of parts for sale. On the wedge side if someone would copy the FBS (Fred Brewer head) in a updated quality casting there's big power to be made there. Offer different intake port cc volume heads.

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Uberpube] #3211851
02/08/24 08:54 AM
02/08/24 08:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline OP
super stock
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super stock

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Loudoun County, VA
Originally Posted by Uberpube
Originally Posted by metallicareload
T&D machine can make their rockers out of steel if the customer requests it drive

Hmm, I looked all over and asked around and didn't see that they did that back then.. I had a line on some ported and worked over victors when I was starting my build, but ended up waiting for the TF270's to come out so I could use standard location steel rockers.

B3RE had a set of steel T&D for Victors a few years ago that I saw. At the time Mike said they were about $2500, IIRC.


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: topside] #3211868
02/08/24 10:08 AM
02/08/24 10:08 AM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Originally Posted by topside
I'd like to see a head that looks like the 440Source (meaning stock-appearing) but flows like a TF270, but I'm probably in a minority.




I don't think you are as this is why the 'source head was a hit


running up my post count some more .
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3211875
02/08/24 10:16 AM
02/08/24 10:16 AM
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Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
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Missouri
I kind of agree we have a lot of head choices that will make more HP than a stock block 440 can handle right now. So why would you invest $7,000 in heads and related parts or more, in a block that is not a question if it will fail but when? What the Mopar market needs is a cost-effective aftermarket block that is not in short supply and costs twice what a typical aftermarket Chevy block costs. I limited my latest build to 600HP concreted the block and a stud girdle just to try and make sure it would hold up to racing a few years. I have seen a bunch of 700hp engines fail, with distorted cylinder walls and cracks in the main webs. And of course, the catastrophic failures when those distorted cylinder walls crack and hydraulic a cylinder at high RPM.

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: topside] #3211898
02/08/24 10:45 AM
02/08/24 10:45 AM
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Originally Posted by topside
I'd like to see a head that looks like the 440Source (meaning stock-appearing) but flows like a TF270, but I'm probably in a minority.




That would be cool for sure.

Having a better combustion chamber would be the icing on the cake!

I've had CNC ported Stealths on my '63 for over 9 years now. They flow about what a TF-240 flows. No issues and I've beat the crap out of them!


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: GY3] #3211965
02/08/24 01:35 PM
02/08/24 01:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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A BMP block for a BBC is $500 less than one for a BBM. If that $500 is gonna break the bank then maybe you need a new hobby. I personally would run an aluminum block before a steel block for the weight savings. But unfortunately. BMP only offers a stock replacement style block. For me that is not what I would want.

A Dart iron BBC replacement block is $4300ish dollars retail. That would be a stock architecture iron block. A Brodix Aluminum replace BBC block is $6100ish for a stock style replacement block. About $400 less than Mitchell. Indy is $7300, KB is $7995 but comes with a raised cam and larger core. Those things cost quite a bit more from Dart or Brodix but are options.

Unfortunately no one reputable seems to be in the non hemi iron block business. But you can buy one for $5999 from Callies/Energy. Making it $1600 or so more than a Dart iron BBC. Again is $1600 is a deal breaker these days then some self examination might be in order.

Everyone knows the inherent weakness of stock block stuff. There are PLENTY of heads in that market area that can more than break a stock block deal.

As for another canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head....HAH...Who is gonna buy it? A select few possible in my case without and accompanying block that can be taken to 4.600 bore at least what's the point? We already have a head like that which are slightly more common than unicorn teeth at the track.

I have seen some comments here that echo that old "mopar guys are cheap" refrain I hear all the time. And folks wonder why that moniker sticks. If you wanna go fast it costs money. No way around it, don't matter what make you choose.

Yes you can get a steel rocker for most any head, if T&D makes them in aluminum they can in steel. It just costs money. But so does a T&D aluminum rocker. We had to have Jesel make steel rockers for the heads up car. It took a year of begging them and another year before they had them done due to the offset we have to use. On the end they were almost $5K for the INTAKE rockers. Oh yeah that is for a small block chevy. The morale racing isn't cheap if you want to go fast.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3212043
02/08/24 05:55 PM
02/08/24 05:55 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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Maybe a new head similar to the 6.4, even the rocker setup then use a Hemi type cam. I know it’s 10 bolt but..

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: topside] #3212049
02/08/24 06:14 PM
02/08/24 06:14 PM
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Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
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Originally Posted by topside
I'd like to see a head that looks like the 440Source (meaning stock-appearing) but flows like a TF270, but I'm probably in a minority.

I would think a re-run of the Stage V Hemi heads for BB would sell fairly well.

Bottom line for all such pipe-dreaming is volume & profitability, so I won't hold my breath.

They did make a SUPER Stealth from 440 Source, uses offset intake rockers, also easly made into max wedge port, I have not flowed the TF270 on my bench but my Super Stealths that I ported flow over 340@ .650 & they look like stock 440 heads. they might flow better than my #'s , Mr Ported helped me recalibrate my toy flow bench & it was reading low when I did my heads.

Last edited by CSK; 02/08/24 06:17 PM.

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3212062
02/08/24 06:55 PM
02/08/24 06:55 PM
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Southington Ct.
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turbobitt Offline
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire


As for another canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head....HAH...Who is gonna buy it? A select few possible in my case without and accompanying block that can be taken to 4.600 bore at least what's the point? We already have a head like that which are slightly more common than unicorn teeth at the track.



Who would buy canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head that flowed over 400 CFM for around $3000 price range ...... Hmmm

It can be done and was done in another crowd....

AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3212067
02/08/24 07:29 PM
02/08/24 07:29 PM
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Carson City
Mike@440Source Offline
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Carson City
I'm going to raffle my house next...LOL
up

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3212069
02/08/24 07:39 PM
02/08/24 07:39 PM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
If I was given a nice stash of cash I wouldn't invest a dime into a new Mopar head. I might possibly be willing to fund the development of a cast iron block though. I know roughly what I'd do. It would be a low deck, 4.500 bore, stock replacement type block but with cross bolted 440 size mains. Probably some tweaks on the oiling system but that would be about it. I'd wave some money at Dart to see if they would handle the casting and machine work since their stuff tends to be really nice. I'd probably lose my shirt on the deal but if it was lottery money I wouldn't care too much.
I see no reason for a new head. TF240 is the perfect street head, Indy 440-1 is a great race head. NA guys who want to make more power are few and far between.

I do think I'd need to spend some money to also tool up a really good low deck intake since the market is a bit thin in that area, and I might go ahead and cast a really good set of valve covers since nobody has managed to do that.

Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3212073
02/08/24 08:07 PM
02/08/24 08:07 PM
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Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
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65signet Offline
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El Dorado Ca
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
A BMP block for a BBC is $500 less than one for a BBM. If that $500 is gonna break the bank then maybe you need a new hobby. I personally would run an aluminum block before a steel block for the weight savings. But unfortunately. BMP only offers a stock replacement style block. For me that is not what I would want.

A Dart iron BBC replacement block is $4300ish dollars retail. That would be a stock architecture iron block. A Brodix Aluminum replace BBC block is $6100ish for a stock style replacement block. About $400 less than Mitchell. Indy is $7300, KB is $7995 but comes with a raised cam and larger core. Those things cost quite a bit more from Dart or Brodix but are options.

Unfortunately no one reputable seems to be in the non hemi iron block business. But you can buy one for $5999 from Callies/Energy. Making it $1600 or so more than a Dart iron BBC. Again is $1600 is a deal breaker these days then some self examination might be in order.

Everyone knows the inherent weakness of stock block stuff. There are PLENTY of heads in that market area that can more than break a stock block deal.

As for another canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head....HAH...Who is gonna buy it? A select few possible in my case without and accompanying block that can be taken to 4.600 bore at least what's the point? We already have a head like that which are slightly more common than unicorn teeth at the track.

I have seen some comments here that echo that old "mopar guys are cheap" refrain I hear all the time. And folks wonder why that moniker sticks. If you wanna go fast it costs money. No way around it, don't matter what make you choose.

Yes you can get a steel rocker for most any head, if T&D makes them in aluminum they can in steel. It just costs money. But so does a T&D aluminum rocker. We had to have Jesel make steel rockers for the heads up car. It took a year of begging them and another year before they had them done due to the offset we have to use. On the end they were almost $5K for the INTAKE rockers. Oh yeah that is for a small block chevy. The morale racing isn't cheap if you want to go fast.



This is want i been thinking about, you have a decent amount of head choices and cubic inch choice, but how much power can you make before the stock block gives up? it seems like its not hard to make 700hp with a 440 block.


1965 Plymouth Barracuda 273 M/SA
1970 Plymouth Duster 360/904 10.60s with J heads
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: turbobitt] #3212185
02/09/24 12:58 PM
02/09/24 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Las Vegas
Originally Posted by turbobitt
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire


As for another canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head....HAH...Who is gonna buy it? A select few possible in my case without and accompanying block that can be taken to 4.600 bore at least what's the point? We already have a head like that which are slightly more common than unicorn teeth at the track.



Who would buy canted/splayed/symmetrical port Mopar BB head that flowed over 400 CFM for around $3000 price range ...... Hmmm

It can be done and was done in another crowd....

AG.


Yeah SBC..We run them and in as cast for they are 100% useless.....If you want a couple sheet metal intakes for them hit me up as I have a few that need a new home.

Again as stated WHO would buy one for a MOPAR........You cannot even buy a GOOD race head for that that is usefule for a BBM for $4k.

Again reenforcing the ideal that Mopar guys are CHEAP.....If it aint damn near free they have no interest in go fast parts.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3212220
02/09/24 02:52 PM
02/09/24 02:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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dvw  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
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MI, usa
If Mopar guys are cheap. Then there must be way more Chevy guys that are cheap.To be honest spending the kind of momey even to build a 9 second bracket car is out of the reach of many. I was fortunate to learn how to do almost evrything myself. This basicly eliminated labor. I've side jobbed my race stuff for 30+ years. Not afraid to buy used parts. You do what you need to do if you want to race. Pretty tough justifying spending household income for a race rig with a family.
Doug

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