Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Al_Alguire] #3199724
12/23/23 09:38 PM
12/23/23 09:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
ALL Aluminum blocks grow period. This affects rods,mains cam bearings, pistons and rods. Most error on the safe side for things like piston to head etc. The also loose heat very very quickly. Building cylinder pressure is another issue because they loose heat so fast. Most would be very surprised the compression ratios run in really good running stuff with an aluminum block. In general you need to ad compression if you are going from a steel to aluminum block.

We run a LOT of compression ratio in my stuff and the Vette. On the reverse side you can run a fair amount of compression in an aluminum block on pump gas. We have done a few in the 12.5 CR area and no issues.

Al, have you come up with any amount of compression increase needed to offset the effects of an aluminum block? I calculate compression by figuring in the block deck increase due to heat. My cold piston to head is .040, and use +.010 added to below deck measurements cold, since that is where it will be under load. But i doubt that will also account for rapid heat loss due to the block being aluminum, which will reduce power output more..


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: AndyF] #3199744
12/24/23 12:11 AM
12/24/23 12:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline
master
Blusmbl  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted by AndyF
Been a huge issue with OEMs starting 60 years ago with the Buick V8. The OEM guys do all sorts of weird stuff such as spraying iron on the cylinder walls rather than using sleeves.


The 13/14 GT500 motors had that process, same with the Coyotes - aluminum block with a spray coating on the bores. Aluminum jug dirtbikes are similar too, some are sleeved but many are coated. There is a ton of work in the design of a modern aluminum block, and the RB block has bigger mains, bores and 1-2" taller deck height than a coyote or LS, so there is more growth for a given temp compared to a smallblock. I don't know of any modern big blocks from the factory with aluminum, the GM 632 crate motor would've been a great opportunity and GM decided to make that one in cast iron.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Blusmbl] #3199776
12/24/23 08:18 AM
12/24/23 08:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,813
ohio
R
ruderunner Offline
master
ruderunner  Offline
master
R

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,813
ohio
It wouldn't surprise me if OEM aluminum blocks have steel reinforcement in key locations to help control expansion.

Similar to cast pistons


Angry white pureblood male
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Blusmbl] #3199990
12/25/23 04:13 PM
12/25/23 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
Originally Posted by Blusmbl
Originally Posted by AndyF
Been a huge issue with OEMs starting 60 years ago with the Buick V8. The OEM guys do all sorts of weird stuff such as spraying iron on the cylinder walls rather than using sleeves.


The 13/14 GT500 motors had that process, same with the Coyotes - aluminum block with a spray coating on the bores. Aluminum jug dirtbikes are similar too, some are sleeved but many are coated. There is a ton of work in the design of a modern aluminum block, and the RB block has bigger mains, bores and 1-2" taller deck height than a coyote or LS, so there is more growth for a given temp compared to a smallblock. I don't know of any modern big blocks from the factory with aluminum, the GM 632 crate motor would've been a great opportunity and GM decided to make that one in cast iron.


Chevy tried an aluminum big block back in 1969 for the road race program as well as the ZL1 package. Didn't last long though. I think most of those engines developed problems over time, usually from corrosion. The 632 would be crazy with an aluminum block but Chevy probably didn't want to spend the money on an engine that was already so expensive.

Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: gregsdart] #3200076
12/26/23 01:31 PM
12/26/23 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Originally Posted by gregsdart
Al, have you come up with any amount of compression increase needed to offset the effects of an aluminum block? I calculate compression by figuring in the block deck increase due to heat. My cold piston to head is .040, and use +.010 added to below deck measurements cold, since that is where it will be under load. But i doubt that will also account for rapid heat loss due to the block being aluminum, which will reduce power output more..


Just pick number for deck height, they are all different and only way to find the limit is sneak up on it. .040" P to H is giving up a LOT of space IMO. As for the compresion ratio I would look at least going 1.5-2 numbers higher. From my experience a 15-1 aluminum engine is not alot ....


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Al_Alguire] #3200098
12/26/23 03:09 PM
12/26/23 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
J
JERICOGTX Offline
I Live Here
JERICOGTX  Offline
I Live Here
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
My aluminum block has the distributor drive bushing pinned. Just something else to consider.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Al_Alguire] #3200107
12/26/23 03:44 PM
12/26/23 03:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 906
Washington
H
hemienvy Offline
super stock
hemienvy  Offline
super stock
H

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 906
Washington
Al, What is your opinion on compression for a pump gas street motor vs. an 8-second drag motor, aluminum block that is ?
Maybe 11:1 on 91 octane ?

Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: hemienvy] #3200112
12/26/23 04:05 PM
12/26/23 04:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Originally Posted by hemienvy
Al, What is your opinion on compression for a pump gas street motor vs. an 8-second drag motor, aluminum block that is ?
Maybe 11:1 on 91 octane ?


I would think you can get away with more than that, but dealing with aluminum blocks is not exactly an exact science for maximum gains.As I say we have done 12.5-1 with an aluminum block would not suggest starting there but can be done. But a very efficient head that didn't require alot of timing. FWIW the engine in the heads up car is all aluminum and over the years have sneaked up on alot of the little things.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: Al_Alguire] #3201156
12/31/23 02:34 PM
12/31/23 02:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 399
SouthEast Michigan
P
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline
enthusiast
PETE@BESTMACHINE  Offline
enthusiast
P

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 399
SouthEast Michigan
We never pinned cam bearing in a world/BMP block, use green Loctite and make sure cam fits and turn easy with oil on bearings. We always spray Cometic head gaskets with copper spray and sealer around water passages. The rear/main water passage in the BMP deck was to small , so I machined them bigger . I align honed the main bore to the small side of the spec and ran .003-.0035 main bearing clearance with MS 1795V Bearings . Piston to head .040 with steel rods , we seen contact at .037 . That was with iron block back in the day , Aluminum will grow so we ran the compression higher . Use a compression sheet and play with piston to deck to see what the change will be, Diamond had a nice one I always used. No one will pay for R&D so you have to make the best call on your build and go over everything with a fine tooth comb .

Re: Loose cam bearings and other fun stuff! [Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE] #3201342
01/01/24 08:42 AM
01/01/24 08:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by PETE@BESTMACHINE
We never pinned cam bearing in a world/BMP block, use green Loctite and make sure cam fits and turn easy with oil on bearings. We always spray Cometic head gaskets with copper spray and sealer around water passages. The rear/main water passage in the BMP deck was to small , so I machined them bigger . I align honed the main bore to the small side of the spec and ran .003-.0035 main bearing clearance with MS 1795V Bearings . Piston to head .040 with steel rods , we seen contact at .037 . That was with iron block back in the day , Aluminum will grow so we ran the compression higher . Use a compression sheet and play with piston to deck to see what the change will be, Diamond had a nice one I always used. No one will pay for R&D so you have to make the best call on your build and go over everything with a fine tooth comb .

Thanks Pete! I plan to check main bearing housing bore and see if it is near the minimum, and since piston to deck was .0125 on one bank and .0180 on the othere, i will either go with cometic .027 and .036, or i have seen copper gaskets in .022 and .032, to gain a slight amount of compression. I guess i could run a copper .22 on the .018 side and a .027 on the .0125 side to get .040 cold on both decks. I would gain .008 more squeeze, running ( warm motor) piston to head would be .048 to .050, rather than .055+


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1