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Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop #3193943
11/28/23 04:10 PM
11/28/23 04:10 PM
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Central US
grancuda Offline OP
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Going to have a prestolite dual point tach drive set-up at the local speed shop but unsure what exactly I need. Normally I run aftermarket distributors that I can play around with springs & such so not sure what to tell them I am looking to get it set at. I am not sure how much advance that distributor has but probably just want it all in at 2800 or so.

I’m open to any advice & here’s the set-up:
3090lb ‘67 Barracuda
3600 stall w/3.55 gears & 26” tire
440
Edelbrock performer heads
850 DP Holley
Weiand Single Plane
Cam Grind Number: XS282S
Advertised Duration: 282 int./290 exh.
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 244 int./252 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees): 110


IMG_2125.jpeg
Last edited by grancuda; 11/28/23 04:11 PM.

1967 Barracuda Formula S 383
1967 Chevy C10 Short Stepper
1980 Macho Power Wagon LWB 318
2021 Toyota Supra
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: grancuda] #3193955
11/28/23 04:42 PM
11/28/23 04:42 PM
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madscientist Offline
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You really need to get the engine on a crank dyno where you can load the engine at a given RPM and hold it there. Then you move the timing up and down until it makes max power. Then you do it again. I usually start at 2500 and go up in 500 rpm increments until I get to 5000 then I go up in 1,000’s.

You can do it on a wheel dyno IF it’s not an inertia dyno. You need to be able to load the engine, steady state at WOT to develop your timing curve.

Otherwise you are just guessing. And my best guess is your engine will NOT want the full curve in by 2800. Plus you need to run vacuum advance if you can.

Last edited by madscientist; 11/29/23 05:15 PM.

Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: grancuda] #3193957
11/28/23 04:43 PM
11/28/23 04:43 PM
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GY3 Offline
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Originally Posted by grancuda
Going to have a prestolite dual point tach drive set-up at the local speed shop but unsure what exactly I need. Normally I run aftermarket distributors that I can play around with springs & such so not sure what to tell them I am looking to get it set at. I am not sure how much advance that distributor has but probably just want it all in at 2800 or so.

I’m open to any advice & here’s the set-up:
3090lb ‘67 Barracuda
3600 stall w/3.55 gears & 26” tire
440
Edelbrock performer heads
850 DP Holley
Weiand Single Plane
Cam Grind Number: XS282S
Advertised Duration: 282 int./290 exh.
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 244 int./252 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees): 110




Getting it all in as quickly as possible has always worked for me. The lightest springs usually on function as a retard to make starting easier. Once the car is started all timing is in at idle.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: GY3] #3193970
11/28/23 05:20 PM
11/28/23 05:20 PM
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Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline
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iagree 25* initial and all in by 1,800 at the very least.


Master, again and still
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: madscientist] #3193988
11/28/23 06:44 PM
11/28/23 06:44 PM
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Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
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Originally Posted by madscientist

You can do it on a wheel dyno IF it’s not an inertia dyno. You need to be able to load the engine, steady state at WOT to develop your timing curve.


Disagree on that, can still get it close if not perfect on an inertia dyno as that's closer to it going down a track than zero rpm/sec acceleration.

Even if it was eddy current, no way it can hold it steady state at WOT with an automatic and looser converter. (without lockup)

Last edited by INTMD8; 11/28/23 06:44 PM.

69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: GY3] #3194005
11/28/23 08:24 PM
11/28/23 08:24 PM
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CMcAllister Offline
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Quote
Getting it all in as quickly as possible has always worked for me. The lightest springs usually on function as a retard to make starting easier. Once the car is started all timing is in at idle.



Quote
iagree 25* initial and all in by 1,800 at the very least.



So why not lock it out and be done with it?


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: grancuda] #3194007
11/28/23 08:28 PM
11/28/23 08:28 PM
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Good luck. It will cost a bunch of money to have a shop build you a custom curve. You'll actually have a hard time even finding a shop with a distributor machine much less someone who knows how to run it. We refuse to custom curve distributors anymore since it can take several hours to do it correctly. If you charge the customer $100 per hour for 4 hours of work they freak out, especially if they bought an old distributor for $50 at a swap meet. It is a lot less expensive to buy a digital distributor and program it with your laptop or cell phone.

Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: CMcAllister] #3194019
11/28/23 09:05 PM
11/28/23 09:05 PM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Quote
Getting it all in as quickly as possible has always worked for me. The lightest springs usually on function as a retard to make starting easier. Once the car is started all timing is in at idle.



Quote
iagree 25* initial and all in by 1,800 at the very least.



So why not lock it out and be done with it?


Mine won't start with 34* initial. 25* is the max. It will hit the starter when hot but will go ahead and tick over.

20* to 26* is typically the most initial that will allow a combo like the OP has to start on a hot day on pump gas. If his will start at full advance; COOL! Go for it. But most won't.


Master, again and still
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: AndyF] #3194067
11/29/23 12:38 AM
11/29/23 12:38 AM
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madscientist Offline
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Good luck. It will cost a bunch of money to have a shop build you a custom curve. You'll actually have a hard time even finding a shop with a distributor machine much less someone who knows how to run it. We refuse to custom curve distributors anymore since it can take several hours to do it correctly. If you charge the customer $100 per hour for 4 hours of work they freak out, especially if they bought an old distributor for $50 at a swap meet. It is a lot less expensive to buy a digital distributor and program it with your laptop or cell phone.



Fact. It takes a long time to sort out a timing curve. Then getting the distributor to do what the engine wants is another story.

Most engines I see want a bunch of initial, almost no advance through peak torque and then a curve to peak hp. Quick curves and locking them out generally kills power at and around peak torque.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: madscientist] #3194072
11/29/23 02:42 AM
11/29/23 02:42 AM
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Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
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Originally Posted by madscientist



Fact. It takes a long time to sort out a timing curve. Then getting the distributor to do what the engine wants is another story.

Most engines I see want a bunch of initial, almost no advance through peak torque and then a curve to peak hp. Quick curves and locking them out generally kills power at and around peak torque.


Agreed. Once you find timing that makes max hp, you can pull several degrees at max torque without reducing output and then ramp low rpm up to max torque timing. Not happening with just centrifugal advance.


69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: grancuda] #3194079
11/29/23 05:08 AM
11/29/23 05:08 AM
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I like to have between 14 up to 18 degrees advance before top dead center at idle below 1200 RPM and 34 to 36 degrees BTDC max at or above 2000 RPM up
If you take the advance plate out of that distributor and flip it over it may have the among of built in mechanical advance stamp on the plate, if it says 14 that means it has 28 crankshaft degrees due to the distributor spinning at half the speed the crankshaft does, if it is stamp 12 then it has 24 degrees. I measure the diameter of the advance studs on the advance weights and then measure the length of the slots on the advance plates and subtract the diameter of the studs and then due the math for how many thousands of an inch it takes for each degree of mechanical advance and then weld the slots up and then make them the length I want for the total amount of mechanical advance I want.
Its been a long time since I did the last one I did so I can't remember now the exact amount of length and how much it takes for each degree of mechanical advance, SORRY blush


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: INTMD8] #3194104
11/29/23 09:53 AM
11/29/23 09:53 AM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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Originally Posted by INTMD8
Originally Posted by madscientist



Fact. It takes a long time to sort out a timing curve. Then getting the distributor to do what the engine wants is another story.

Most engines I see want a bunch of initial, almost no advance through peak torque and then a curve to peak hp. Quick curves and locking them out generally kills power at and around peak torque.


Agreed. Once you find timing that makes max hp, you can pull several degrees at max torque without reducing output and then ramp low rpm up to max torque timing. Not happening with just centrifugal advance.


While all that may be true, here's the reality: a warmed up (hot) 440 in a 3100lb car with a looser converter than stock and 3.55 gears will get along just fine without the timing curve set perfectly. The idle and off idle timing will be the most important areas to the driver. After that, the engine will pull basically the same where ever the curve is set. A dyno may show some slightly different numbers, but the OP's butt dyno will never tell the difference in curves. And if the driver is pushing the throttle hard, the converter will flash to 3,500RPM anyway. Unless the OP is running drag radials, the traction will already be compromised, so a little more torque from a perfect curve won't help anything.

The cost to dial the curve in perfectly will not be worth the money in this combo. That money would be better spent somewhere else. If the OP starts with 25* +/-, we are talking about 8* or so through the curve. Not enough to kill power. It may loose some torque, but with an abundance at hand given this combo, it won't be noticed.


Master, again and still
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: DaveRS23] #3194133
11/29/23 11:31 AM
11/29/23 11:31 AM
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madscientist Offline
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Originally Posted by DaveRS23
Originally Posted by INTMD8
Originally Posted by madscientist



Fact. It takes a long time to sort out a timing curve. Then getting the distributor to do what the engine wants is another story.

Most engines I see want a bunch of initial, almost no advance through peak torque and then a curve to peak hp. Quick curves and locking them out generally kills power at and around peak torque.


Agreed. Once you find timing that makes max hp, you can pull several degrees at max torque without reducing output and then ramp low rpm up to max torque timing. Not happening with just centrifugal advance.


While all that may be true, here's the reality: a warmed up (hot) 440 in a 3100lb car with a looser converter than stock and 3.55 gears will get along just fine without the timing curve set perfectly. The idle and off idle timing will be the most important areas to the driver. After that, the engine will pull basically the same where ever the curve is set. A dyno may show some slightly different numbers, but the OP's butt dyno will never tell the difference in curves. And if the driver is pushing the throttle hard, the converter will flash to 3,500RPM anyway. Unless the OP is running drag radials, the traction will already be compromised, so a little more torque from a perfect curve won't help anything.

The cost to dial the curve in perfectly will not be worth the money in this combo. That money would be better spent somewhere else. If the OP starts with 25* +/-, we are talking about 8* or so through the curve. Not enough to kill power. It may loose some torque, but with an abundance at hand given this combo, it won't be noticed.


I regularly find 30-40 for pounds at peak torque and 20-30 at peak hp. Giving that up isn’t “getting along fine” even with a loose converter.

I don’t understand how guys can’t figure out the engine is pissed off without the correct timing curve. It makes zero sense to not sort it out.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: madscientist] #3194140
11/29/23 12:13 PM
11/29/23 12:13 PM
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First, what is the distributor number you're using. That will tell what mechanical advance max is. Normally they have pretty light springs unless your using an older 300 type. If it is one of the race types your probably getting 16 or so mechanical at the crank. 8 deg distributor.

Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: dragon slayer] #3194145
11/29/23 12:26 PM
11/29/23 12:26 PM
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Connecticut
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Programmable box with locked distributor. What happens to your curve the next big change?


best of 11.39 at 117 mph 1.60 60’. 68 340 S Barracuda Fastback F.A.S.T [IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2mnnnnt.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: FurryStump] #3194161
11/29/23 01:27 PM
11/29/23 01:27 PM
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Progressive ignition for the win:

https://progressionignition.com/products/ols/products/chrysler-413440-v8-small-cap-distributor

Their stuff solves your problem with some added features. I don't have personal experience with their stuff yet but have seen some good input on a number of forums and on Facebook groups as well. There is one in my future once I get mine back together this summer.

Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: Brewzer67] #3194221
11/29/23 05:37 PM
11/29/23 05:37 PM
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Thats a lot of money for it down twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: Cab_Burge] #3194223
11/29/23 06:21 PM
11/29/23 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Thats a lot of money for it down twocents


Not when you don't have to buy, mount and wire an MSD box and distributor. Just one distributor and 2 wires to a coil and a hot. I have set up 5 or 6 of them on the dyno, and they are impressive.


Joe


Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: sr4440] #3194233
11/29/23 06:55 PM
11/29/23 06:55 PM
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Central US
grancuda Offline OP
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Lots of good info & stuff I hadn’t considered. I was kicking around locking this distributor out & getting the newest MSD offering that has timing control, it’s now only around $400, The MSD 6AL Ultra Plus, I can load maps to it set the curve based off RPM & vacuum. By using my dual point distributor, I can still run a tach drive tachometer & leave the factory wiring intact, just disconnect it & if the MSD unit goes out I can hook it back stock & get it back home on the points & not be stranded.

https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/street/parts/6523


1967 Barracuda Formula S 383
1967 Chevy C10 Short Stepper
1980 Macho Power Wagon LWB 318
2021 Toyota Supra
Re: Having a Distributor curve set at a speed shop [Re: sr4440] #3194236
11/29/23 07:12 PM
11/29/23 07:12 PM
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CMcAllister Offline
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Originally Posted by sr4440
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Thats a lot of money for it down twocents


Not when you don't have to buy, mount and wire an MSD box and distributor. Just one distributor and 2 wires to a coil and a hot. I have set up 5 or 6 of them on the dyno, and they are impressive.


Joe


First I've seen them. Pretty cool if it works and lives. Poor man's Grid. Wonder where it's made,

ETA I see designed and assembled in the USA.

Last edited by CMcAllister; 11/29/23 07:14 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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