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Re: Air pan testing? [Re: AndyF] #3175151
09/14/23 12:11 PM
09/14/23 12:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
A LOT of variables, cannot simply build an air pan and expect great results. You will need more jetting for sure. If the scoop is sized properly for the application you will certainly see a gain. Those lexan boxes are NOT sized properly for much more than a grocery store 318.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3175154
09/14/23 12:41 PM
09/14/23 12:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
I agree with the many variables aspect, and why the results many report may be no more than GIGO.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3175155
09/14/23 12:46 PM
09/14/23 12:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,923
A shed in England
Tig Offline
master
Tig  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,923
A shed in England
I found this interesting, seems you don't have to build the scoop as big as you think you might.

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...p-speed-with-a-forward-facing-air-inlet/


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Tig] #3175157
09/14/23 12:59 PM
09/14/23 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,679
On the parachute mount
N
n20mstr Offline
master
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Posts: 4,679
On the parachute mount
The air pan/ seal the hood works, BUT your scoop is too low to the hood ( air boundry layer) and too big of an opening, sealing it will catch a LOT of air at speed.
It sill take some trial and error, the solution for you may be seal the scoop and then block off the bottom part of the scoop opening. The "good air" is supposedly 2" above the hood surface. blocking some of the opening makes it smaller so helps with catching too much air at speed. Its some trial and error for sure.
In my experience though, cold air is always better and it will pick up something, how much ? go back to the trial and error comment

Last edited by n20mstr; 09/14/23 01:01 PM.

....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Tig] #3175158
09/14/23 01:05 PM
09/14/23 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Tig
I found this interesting, seems you don't have to build the scoop as big as you think you might.

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...p-speed-with-a-forward-facing-air-inlet/


In your case as with ANY of the lexan boxes on a 2x4 deal it is NOT the right way. There is a pressure loss in the scoop as air passes the first carb. Keeping the scoop the same size front to rear ensures the rear carb will NOT see the proper amount of air/benefit. There is a reason scoops are tapered in the back, it is an attempt to equalize that pressure difference from to rear. althogh it will NEVER be the same. It is also an issue in a single 4 lexan box but the drop will not be as large since you are not pulling as much air at the front, but there is still a pressure loss to the rear.

In the OP's case he will likely need to make the air pan MUCH smaller than the scoop he has. But in the end to see any benefit is going to require some trial and error. As that scoop opening is WAY to big. But I think with some trial and error he will find a gain it will just take some work to get there.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3175160
09/14/23 01:18 PM
09/14/23 01:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,570
Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
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Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
A LOT of variables, cannot simply build an air pan and expect great results. You will need more jetting for sure. If the scoop is sized properly for the application you will certainly see a gain. Those lexan boxes are NOT sized properly for much more than a grocery store 318.


How the scoop is configured inside matters too.

We fabbed a pan that went into the scoop - basically a Pro Stock style snorkel - to reduce the size of the opening and direct the air rather than just have it rolling around in there. Then used a pan on the carb to seal to that.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3175176
09/14/23 01:56 PM
09/14/23 01:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,923
A shed in England
Tig Offline
master
Tig  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,923
A shed in England
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Originally Posted by Tig
I found this interesting, seems you don't have to build the scoop as big as you think you might.

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...p-speed-with-a-forward-facing-air-inlet/


In your case as with ANY of the lexan boxes on a 2x4 deal it is NOT the right way. There is a pressure loss in the scoop as air passes the first carb. Keeping the scoop the same size front to rear ensures the rear carb will NOT see the proper amount of air/benefit. There is a reason scoops are tapered in the back, it is an attempt to equalize that pressure difference from to rear. althogh it will NEVER be the same. It is also an issue in a single 4 lexan box but the drop will not be as large since you are not pulling as much air at the front, but there is still a pressure loss to the rear.


Not wishing to start an argument but you are going to have to school me on this, I have a question or two. I'm no expert by any means. My understanding is that in the example described in the article, maximum engine airflow demand (1600cfm) was achieved at 47.7 mph given the size of the forward facing opening. At any speed above that, would there be a positive pressure at the rear of the scoop as the scoop is now capturing more air than the engine demands ? I agree that there must be a difference in pressure between the front and the rear on open dual carbs but my home made makralon scoop uses a common filter (and is tapered towards the rear) will this make a difference ? Also what would be the right or best way on a 2 x 4 deal ? TIA.


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Tig] #3175186
09/14/23 03:20 PM
09/14/23 03:20 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 712
Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
super stock
INTMD8  Offline
super stock

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 712
Lake Villa Il
Interesting results from everyone. Good timing as I'm currently building a cowl plenum induction on mine.


69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: JERICOGTX] #3175206
09/14/23 05:17 PM
09/14/23 05:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,185
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,185
Bend,OR USA
I have tested using a complete air cleaner, then the base only and then no air cleaner with a hood with no scoop on my old 1963 Plymouth 415 HP M.W. stocker, it ran .03 faster with the base only shruggy work
Try testing yours and let us know what it does wrench up luck
I'll scopebet it is worth 2 to 3 + MPH increase in the 1.4 mile


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3175216
09/14/23 05:59 PM
09/14/23 05:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,505
PA
moparacer Offline
master
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Posts: 2,505
PA
Also don't forget, the cooler fresh air will most likely require more jet.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: moparacer] #3175245
09/14/23 08:39 PM
09/14/23 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,569
Eagle, Idaho
Neil Offline
The Doctor is in.
Neil  Offline
The Doctor is in.

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,569
Eagle, Idaho
Couple guys here who have 1968 Hemi a-body type scoops on their race cars have made some air relief cuts or holes drilled in the back side. Maybe too much air coming in at speed messes up the carburetor signal?

My brother put an air pan on one of his cars years ago as it was burbling and not running totally smooth at the top end. It went slightly faster afterwards, but that may have been due to it being able to run clean all the way thru the quarter vs the pan being a speed adder all by itself.

Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Neil] #3175291
09/15/23 07:19 AM
09/15/23 07:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
Locomotion Offline
master
Locomotion  Offline
master

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Posts: 5,894
Florida
A friend had a '65 Satellite with a sealed Hemi style scoop, no air filter and a flat air pan over a 360. Car ran well but occasionally slowed up on a run, then went back to what was expected. He cut a few "vents" in the sealing foam and the car stopped the random slower runs. We figured it had something to do with turbulence. I'm sure a good filter assembly or at least a good baseplate helps minimize any possible turbulence.

Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Locomotion] #3175304
09/15/23 08:21 AM
09/15/23 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,049
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
master
HardcoreB  Offline
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Posts: 4,049
Shelby Twp. Mi
There's likely some good testing that was done back in the day as to the best execution on your car and scoop in the old DC chassis book. I know there's general hoodscoop practices chronicled which include scoop placement and inner scoop ideals. It's worth something for sure when it's done right. Outside air versus a mixture of radiator and header air is one. Not having air running over the carb and affecting the booster signals is another.

Re: Air pan testing? [Re: JERICOGTX] #3175581
09/16/23 10:04 AM
09/16/23 10:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989
Anoka County, MN
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Leigh Offline
master
Leigh  Offline
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Posts: 5,989
Anoka County, MN
I riveted the pan to a drop filter base. That enables an inlet radius, the ability to use the original filter assembly and lowers the entire assembly.

Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Leigh] #3175666
09/16/23 02:58 PM
09/16/23 02:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,185
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,185
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by Leigh
I riveted the pan to a drop filter base. That enables an inlet radius, the ability to use the original filter assembly and lowers the entire assembly.
up bow grin


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Air pan testing? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3176167
09/18/23 08:58 PM
09/18/23 08:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,618
long island NY
A
Ari440 Offline
master
Ari440  Offline
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A

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,618
long island NY
At the time I was going 11.00s with a steal head 446ci motor.got a stop sign and made a air box to seal up against my six pack hood .on a November day got me a 10.85 123 mph


1.39 9.85 - 137 mph
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