Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: AndyF] #3172420
09/02/23 05:48 PM
09/02/23 05:48 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,189
aZLiViN
J
J_BODY Offline
I Live Here
J_BODY  Offline
I Live Here
J

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,189
aZLiViN
Originally Posted by AndyF
I think RPM is the other line. Looks to me like the RPM is at 1500 then he takes it up to 4000 just before launch.


You may be on to something….. I can’t scroll left and change the data color configuration laugh2

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: J_BODY] #3172453
09/02/23 08:54 PM
09/02/23 08:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
Yeah, it is hard to see but I'm pretty sure the line you selected is the G meter line. It stays at zero until the RPM goes way up and then it starts to go. I'm not sure how Greg did his staging. It honestly doesn't look like he was using a two step, looks more like a foot brake launch but he'll have to describe how he launches. What I see is something around 1500 rpm (could be fast idle) and then at the last moment the RPM steps up to around 4000 rpm and then goes up to 6300. But it never holds at 4000 rpm like it would on a two step.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: AndyF] #3172513
09/03/23 09:15 AM
09/03/23 09:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by AndyF
Yeah, it is hard to see but I'm pretty sure the line you selected is the G meter line. It stays at zero until the RPM goes way up and then it starts to go. I'm not sure how Greg did his staging. It honestly doesn't look like he was using a two step, looks more like a foot brake launch but he'll have to describe how he launches. What I see is something around 1500 rpm (could be fast idle) and then at the last moment the RPM steps up to around 4000 rpm and then goes up to 6300. But it never holds at 4000 rpm like it would on a two step.

I run a two stage throttle controller that collapses the throttle to about 1/10th throttle opening to allow only 3800 rpm when staged. So when I let go of the trans brake button on the top bulb, I floor the throttle, but it only can move that 1/10th of travel. When the delay box time runs out, the throttle goes full open along with trans brake release. This allows a very soft hit at launch, and required my reducing delay time from 1.10 seconds down to 1.04 seconds because it takes time for that throttle control to fully extend to wide open throttle .
The end result is back to back 60 fts of 1.225 and 1.224. I could drop 60 ft times but with a ladderbar I risk that a harder hit will hurt consistency. Watching the car leave on FB video, and seeing the graphs helped me to understand a lot about how this car works in the first twenty feet. Sometimes less is more.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3172537
09/03/23 10:48 AM
09/03/23 10:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
Okay, I get it. I had not seen that type of throttle controller on graph before so I didn't recognize it. Looks like it could help with the launch but you might need a torque converter that is built for it since it acts different than a normal two step.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: AndyF] #3173756
09/08/23 11:14 AM
09/08/23 11:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Well, into every life a little rain must fall. I went to fire up the Dart and no oil pressure. No prime, again! This is a big Milodon five vane 1.1 inch tall pump, dual NEW lines. It ran long enough before I spotted it (40 seconds?) i think i need to pull the pan and look at bearings. On another note, I looked closer at the graph, and it takes .100 seconds for the throttle to fully open when the transbrake releases. Add in the time it takes for air to push to the cylinders and it is probably .15 seconds before air gets to the cylinders? No wonder I am still slow on the lights even though I pulled .04 out of the delay. I found the problem with late 1/2 shift. The CC1 has a lockout on the rpm switch, and it was set at 2.00 seconds. My car hits 7500 rpm in low by 1.50 seconds. so,,maybe with a little better air and the right shift rpm I will see 8.40s, maybe hit 130 mph in the 1/8th!

Last edited by gregsdart; 09/08/23 11:15 AM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3173764
09/08/23 11:29 AM
09/08/23 11:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,497
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,497
So. Burlington, Vt.
Greg,
Have you got a good pic of the oil line routing?

What I would try at this point, before any disassembly happens, is to try and prime the oil system and see how long it takes to build pressure(if it’ll even build pressure).


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3173770
09/08/23 12:12 PM
09/08/23 12:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim Offline
I Live Here
440Jim  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
Originally Posted by gregsdart
Well, into every life a little rain must fall. I went to fire up the Dart and no oil pressure. No prime, again! This is a big Milodon five vane 1.1 inch tall pump, dual NEW lines. It ran long enough before I spotted it (40 seconds?) i think i need to pull the pan and look at bearings.
Honestly, with no load on the engine, and plenty of oil before; I don't think any damage occurred. Like Al said, try fixing the prime. If you do get the oil pressure working, and if you feel worried, cut open the filter after running a few minutes with oil pressure.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: J_BODY] #3173816
09/08/23 04:12 PM
09/08/23 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by J_BODY
Originally Posted by gregsdart
Originally Posted by J_BODY
I’ve never run up on the converter that much….. is that a big tire thing? Forgive me for loading your question post with more questions
all questions are good. I may return to 15x33 tires


I was actually wondering about what appears to be the 2000’ish two step rpm launching from with a 6300 stall. Our converters have similar stalls, I’d just always left at a much higher rpm.

The lower "x" at 2,000 is actually the idle speed just before staging. I think the line you are looking at is the G force graph


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: fast68plymouth] #3173875
09/08/23 08:21 PM
09/08/23 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Greg,
Have you got a good pic of the oil line routing?

What I would try at this point, before any disassembly happens, is to try and prime the oil system and see how long it takes to build pressure(if it’ll even build pressure).

I use a 3 qt accumulate to pre oil, but that wasn't enough to help it prime. I have to use a high speed drill to re prime it, and it can take 30 seconds to get it to pull oil. I may pull the pump and check clearances. However it is a new Moroso hi volume pump and should be good. I will post a picture of the lines. Thanks for the input. I may have to use a longer hose to create more rise above the pump.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3173889
09/08/23 09:10 PM
09/08/23 09:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
Sounds like you have something plumbed wrong if you can't build prime with an Accusump. The 2 or 3 qts from the Accusump should fill everything with oil including the pump. I've never seen a setup that wouldn't prime with an Accusump.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: AndyF] #3173896
09/08/23 10:08 PM
09/08/23 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by AndyF
Sounds like you have something plumbed wrong if you can't build prime with an Accusump. The 2 or 3 qts from the Accusump should fill everything with oil including the pump. I've never seen a setup that wouldn't prime with an Accusump.

Welcome to my world, Andy. I took pictures of oil filter junk. Looks like when I have time I will have to see what that black junk is that looks like very course pepper. Lots of ground up iron on the little magnet in the aluminum bodied screen oil filter.

IMG_20230908_203853305_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_203935859_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_202255994_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_201511929.jpg

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3173897
09/08/23 10:11 PM
09/08/23 10:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Dwayne, my oil routing. Front hose goes to the unblock port, the rear hose to back of the pump.

IMG_20230908_201453345_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_201444621_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_203942174_HDR.jpgIMG_20230908_202159619_HDR.jpg

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3173915
09/09/23 12:21 AM
09/09/23 12:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
That isn't a good sign. Can you pull the pump off to look at it? I guess I'd also pull the valve covers to see what it looks like in there.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: AndyF] #3173931
09/09/23 06:19 AM
09/09/23 06:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by AndyF
That isn't a good sign. Can you pull the pump off to look at it? I guess I'd also pull the valve covers to see what it looks like in there.

I agree, Andy. Something is going away. A full check of the valvetrain, pull the oil pump and look for scratches and measure clearance, and I plan to pull the pan as well. This deal was very hard to prime from day one. At the very least, pushrod tip and adjuster wear are on my mind. When I opened the valve on the accusump it built pressure and held oil pressure long enough to tell me there are no big leaks on the pressure side of the oil system. The thought occured to me there could be a leak in the swinging pickup in the pan. Maybe the rubber "O" ring needs a look. I am not happy to find this, but greatfull I decided to not run it more the last time out.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3174022
09/09/23 02:00 PM
09/09/23 02:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,497
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,497
So. Burlington, Vt.
After you get done checking things over and making whatever changes you deem necessary.........
“What I would do” is prime the system with a drill prior to fire up.
Run the motor for as long as necessary to make there are no leaks, etc.
After you shut it down.......let it sit at least a day.
Then re-prime with a drill and see how long it takes to build pressure. It should be almost instantly.
After you get it to where it passes that test, I’d fire it up again, run for a few minutes....shut down let sit for a day again.

Now, prime with accusump...........then re-test with the drill.
This test is to insure using the accusump doesn’t back feed the pump prime back thru the hoses/filter and into the pan.
You’re looking to see that after using the accusump that there is zero delay in building pressure when running the drill.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: fast68plymouth] #3174211
09/10/23 01:20 PM
09/10/23 01:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
After you get done checking things over and making whatever changes you deem necessary.........
“What I would do” is prime the system with a drill prior to fire up.
Run the motor for as long as necessary to make there are no leaks, etc.
After you shut it down.......let it sit at least a day.
Then re-prime with a drill and see how long it takes to build pressure. It should be almost instantly.
After you get it to where it passes that test, I’d fire it up again, run for a few minutes....shut down let sit for a day again.

Now, prime with accusump...........then re-test with the drill.
This test is to insure using the accusump doesn’t back feed the pump prime back thru the hoses/filter and into the pan.
You’re looking to see that after using the accusump that there is zero delay in building pressure when running the drill.

Thanks Dwayne for the pattern to try. I plan on first looking at the roller lifter on # 6 cylinder, as the lash has opened up .002 or .003. All others were within .0005, and number six rocker assembly checked out good along with the pushrods and adjusters.
So my to do list now is check #6 intake roller lifter, pull the oil pump and inspect, and pull the pan and clean that up as well as check the swinging pickup, and check bearings. I need to track down where all that junk in the oil came from .If I am missing anything, let me know, folks!

Last edited by gregsdart; 09/10/23 01:22 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3174220
09/10/23 01:52 PM
09/10/23 01:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 287
So. IL. USA
PLUM BAD Offline
enthusiast
PLUM BAD  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 287
So. IL. USA
Greg . PM sent.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3174463
09/11/23 03:51 PM
09/11/23 03:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
R
RustyM Offline
mopar
RustyM  Offline
mopar
R

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
Have not read other comments yet, my first thought was: Man, thats a LOT of rpm drop on shifts. I think my first conversation would be sending that file to my converter guy . IMHO, 1100 TO 1500 is too much .
Just my initial reaction. Looks like you hit rev limiter once, late shift setting perhaps ( assuming your programming shifts) .
I think thats what i would address first- converter doesn't seem happy.

Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: RustyM] #3174999
09/13/23 04:32 PM
09/13/23 04:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
I have been tied up elsewhere, but did get the lifter on #6 intake out for inspection. Smooth as glass. Not sure why lash was 002 loose, maybe my fault. All others spot on. The oil pump looks good, only very minor scratches, .004 end clearance. Pan is off, will start looking at bearings when I get time.
On the priming issue, once primed, it would be ok for a week or more, as long as I used the accusump to push oil into the rotors . That 20w50 in the pan is pretty thick when temps drop below 70 degrees. Maybe that is part of the problem? Thinner oil is a gamble because I have loose clearances, and run the motor at 185 degrees at the starting line.

Last edited by gregsdart; 09/13/23 04:38 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 8.603 run, data chart, please critique [Re: gregsdart] #3176253
09/19/23 10:20 AM
09/19/23 10:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
master
gregsdart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
I am done for this year. I had a minor heart incident, in hospital since sat midnight, they put in a stint yesterday. But rehab and letting the incision heal will take a week plus, so I won't be able to go Sept 29/30 at BIR. I a bit bummed, but now know why I was so low on energy
I had a 90 percent blockage in one artery. My advice to anyone feeling a little "off" or easily tired is, if you think you may have issues, take the ride. Do not drive to the hospital or ride. Call an ambulance. Nobody can help someone in a car miles from the ER.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1