Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: IMGTX]
#3129878
03/16/23 12:33 PM
03/16/23 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Newer fluids have more friction modifiers to make the fluid more "slippery". They do this to prevent harsh engagement, especially for the lockup convertor.
In an older transmission or anything race I never run anything but old school style fluids Dexron or type F that don't have as much of the friction modifiers.
Unless the builder or parts inside require a specific fluid then I go by those specs.
Exactly , my new to me 98 Cummins Ram must have +4 in it because the lockup shift is real lazy, I'll be refilling it with the dex/merc next time around ... I have a case of dex3 I bought probably 20 years ago , but I'm saving that for something special ...
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: JohnRR]
#3129881
03/16/23 12:42 PM
03/16/23 12:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,087 Michigan
A727Tflite
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master
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Michigan
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Newer fluids have more friction modifiers to make the fluid more "slippery". They do this to prevent harsh engagement, especially for the lockup convertor.
In an older transmission or anything race I never run anything but old school style fluids Dexron or type F that don't have as much of the friction modifiers.
Unless the builder or parts inside require a specific fluid then I go by those specs.
Exactly , my new to me 98 Cummins Ram must have +4 in it because the lockup shift is real lazy, I'll be refilling it with the dex/merc next time around ... I have a case of dex3 I bought probably 20 years ago , but I'm saving that for something special ... You are feeling something on lockup but it’s not a slow lockup engagement, unless you are setting a lockup code. The controller starts a “clock” once lockup is commanded. If it takes too long, it sets the code. Never seen a code set due to fluid type, always an internal trans issue.
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3129883
03/16/23 12:44 PM
03/16/23 12:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Newer fluids have more friction modifiers to make the fluid more "slippery". They do this to prevent harsh engagement, especially for the lockup convertor.
In an older transmission or anything race I never run anything but old school style fluids Dexron or type F that don't have as much of the friction modifiers.
Unless the builder or parts inside require a specific fluid then I go by those specs.
Exactly , my new to me 98 Cummins Ram must have +4 in it because the lockup shift is real lazy, I'll be refilling it with the dex/merc next time around ... I have a case of dex3 I bought probably 20 years ago , but I'm saving that for something special ... You are feeling something on lockup but it’s not a slow lockup engagement, unless you are setting a lockup code. The controller starts a “clock” once lockup is commanded. If it takes too long, it sets the code. Never seen a code set due to fluid type, always an internal trans issue. Lazy is just the generic term I'm using, it's Soft. My other truck has a low stall convertor , higher pressures and uses Dex3 , the lockup is firm . EDIT ... I looked thru an old Sonnax catalog I have and it has a replacement switch valve to deal with the SOFT TCC apply ... their words ... apply of the lock up clutch. https://www.sonnax.com/parts/1839-4-spool-switch-valvesorry for going off topic ...
Last edited by JohnRR; 03/17/23 11:30 AM.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: TJP]
#3129899
03/16/23 01:34 PM
03/16/23 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,923 Richmond, Indiana
19swinger70
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Richmond, Indiana
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My trans has a manual valve body in it. Would the extra friction modifiers really matter, since I am manually shifting it? Is there a concern with clutches slipping because of the extra modifiers?
1970 340 swinger. sublime 1967 barracuda fastback BB 55 Plymouth Project
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: 19swinger70]
#3129900
03/16/23 01:36 PM
03/16/23 01:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,076 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,076
Niles , Ohio
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I know I have some atf4 7176 and I believe soem old stuff also.Last used when my youngest had the 04 Ram Now we all have new vehicles except for me having my 65 4 speed.Might just sell it off at the crazy prices
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: therocks]
#3129917
03/16/23 02:15 PM
03/16/23 02:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,479 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,479
north of coder
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i'm still using generic all purpose atf that came from a 55 gallon drum in my wife's car, a 94 concorde, and my "bus", a 99 caravan. i still have four or five gallons of that, plus what is scattered around in the shop in one gallon jugs that aren't empty, maybe a quart or two in each jug. i have no idea what this stuff really is, but it works fine in those applications. however, i don't drag race these things either....... i have quite a few quarts of type F on the shelf of different brands, but maybe i should think about stocking up. [just what i need.......more "stuff" to store...... ]
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: moparx]
#3129967
03/16/23 07:05 PM
03/16/23 07:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi
bee1971
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
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Fleet Farm
Type F
$4.75 a quart
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: 19swinger70]
#3130003
03/16/23 09:51 PM
03/16/23 09:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,235 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,235
Looking for a way out of Middl...
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My trans has a manual valve body in it. Would the extra friction modifiers really matter, since I am manually shifting it? Is there a concern with clutches slipping because of the extra modifiers? The manual shift alone will not make a difference in how fast the clutch packs grab or how much they slip. The friction modifiers in the fluid WILL affect how fast the clutches grab and how much they slip. If you are racing then fast clutch grabs are a good thing so slippery friction modifiers are a bad thing. That is why I use Type F and not ATF+4. BUT There are several things inside the transmission that can affect how fast and hard the clutches grab so some transmission builders will specify certain fluids for specific reasons including softening the shift among other things. First go by the transmission builder/manufacturer specs. If they don't have any, then I use Type F / Dexron.
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: 19swinger70]
#3130102
03/17/23 11:20 AM
03/17/23 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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My trans has a manual valve body in it. Would the extra friction modifiers really matter, since I am manually shifting it? Is there a concern with clutches slipping because of the extra modifiers? The transmission still applies clutches and bands the same way whether it shifts manually or automatically. If you're not experiencing slipping now then as long as you haven't done a huge increase in torque you'll probably be fine, but why risk it? I don't think any of the big power diesel trans builders are using, or recommending +4 , I know my mentor was totally against it back in 2001 when I was working for him. My 2000 Cummins Ram only had + fluid in it for the first 30k miles , after that I never used it .
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: JohnRR]
#3130141
03/17/23 02:00 PM
03/17/23 02:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,611 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
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Posts: 11,611
Fulton County, PA
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On a race trans. things are done to get the elements to apply more aggressively, i.e. eliminate the function of accumulators which act as a cushion for the shift, crank up the pressure, use more aggressive friction materials, etc.. Applying frictions, starting and stopping elements quickly behind big power at WOT is much different than a smooth, unfelt shift at light throttle on the street.
Also the use of fluids that are not as slippery as modern fluids which are designed to make the application of lock up converters and frictions elements nice and smooth to satisfy the public.
I tried some Amsoil Synthetic street fluid once. The high gear plates came out black streaked from heat, obvious slipping on application. Never had it before, never had it after I went back to Type F. Good fluid. Not the right application. They do a synthetic racing Type F modeled after fluids used in transmissions in heavy equipment that need to shift while pulling heavy loads.
On topic, ATF shelves are empty at local auto parts, and it has been expensive for awhile. What does show up is gone in less than a day. Heater and fuel hose is also scarce. Next month it will be something else. This is the new normal.
The reported cause is a shortage of some additives.
And the Mag 1 brand of oils is cheap stuff kept for oil changes at shops who want the cheapest crap possible. Not even sold to the public. I have a little inside knowledge of what's going on in the local Advance stores.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 03/17/23 02:03 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: JohnRR]
#3130168
03/17/23 03:13 PM
03/17/23 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,733 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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How is it cheaper? The 2.5 gal jug I linked is $10 /gallon. The 1 gal jug you linked is $12.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#3130173
03/17/23 03:35 PM
03/17/23 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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How is it cheaper? The 2.5 gal jug I linked is $10 /gallon. The 1 gal jug you linked is $12. Sorry my bad ... I'm blaming it on new math ...
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3130174
03/17/23 03:36 PM
03/17/23 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
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And the Mag 1 brand of oils is cheap stuff kept for oil changes at shops who want the cheapest crap possible. Not even sold to the public. I have a little inside knowledge of what's going on in the local Advance stores.
I won't be wasting time getting any of that then. Thanks
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: AtomicDog]
#3130191
03/17/23 05:28 PM
03/17/23 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,923 Richmond, Indiana
19swinger70
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Richmond, Indiana
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Thanks for the info, everyone. I'm going to re-evaluate what im using.
1970 340 swinger. sublime 1967 barracuda fastback BB 55 Plymouth Project
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Re: Availability and Prices of ATF Recently
[Re: 19swinger70]
#3130203
03/17/23 06:52 PM
03/17/23 06:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,611 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,611
Fulton County, PA
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I will say that I know any number of class racers who use Super Tech (Walmart) Type F in high dollar trannies, so there's that.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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