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Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #3098622
12/01/22 10:43 AM
12/01/22 10:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,130
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
super stock
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Loudoun County, VA
Originally Posted by Harry's Taxi 2
I've used 2 of these.

https://bobmazzoliniracing.com/store/#!/Big-Block-Crank-Scraper/p/81474464/category=4301789

Cheap and "in stock". I wonder how much trimming it needs for a good fit... sawzall


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Brad_Haak] #3098733
12/01/22 06:28 PM
12/01/22 06:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
Harry's Taxi 2 Offline
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PA
Originally Posted by Brad_Haak
Originally Posted by Harry's Taxi 2
I've used 2 of these.

https://bobmazzoliniracing.com/store/#!/Big-Block-Crank-Scraper/p/81474464/category=4301789

Cheap and "in stock". I wonder how much trimming it needs for a good fit... sawzall



Needs a little trimming for a 4.15 crank. I trimmed it in the mill for a nicer finish.


'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.

NOS-used when losing since 1940.

Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #3098752
12/01/22 07:26 PM
12/01/22 07:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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I Win
C

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Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
Liny no worky whiney shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Cab_Burge] #3098756
12/01/22 07:32 PM
12/01/22 07:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
Harry's Taxi 2 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Liny no worky whiney shruggy


i don't know how to make it a link. i just tried a copy and paste and that worked.

https://bobmazzoliniracing.com/store/#!/Big-Block-Crank-Scraper/p/81474464/category=4301789


'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.

NOS-used when losing since 1940.

Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #3098761
12/01/22 07:40 PM
12/01/22 07:40 PM
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Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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The cut-outs leave sharp edges, which will eventually develop in cracks as the pan flexes.
Possible remedy:

[Linked Image]


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #3098801
12/01/22 10:23 PM
12/01/22 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,723
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
This link should work.

Scraper link

Last edited by GomangoCuda; 12/01/22 10:24 PM.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: GomangoCuda] #3098810
12/01/22 11:03 PM
12/01/22 11:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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C

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Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
It did, thanks bow up
I should call him and jerk his chain a little to raise his blood pressure and make sure his heart is still beating whistling grin devil
We are both getting old whiney shruggy
Better than dying, huh work grin


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Cab_Burge] #3098863
12/02/22 08:38 AM
12/02/22 08:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,130
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
super stock
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Loudoun County, VA
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
...
Better than dying, huh work grin

As one of my older bro's says, every day above ground is a good one


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Hot 340] #3098956
12/02/22 03:06 PM
12/02/22 03:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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My crude illustration (above) is also relevant to other physical shapes with sharp internal corners. Among these are modified K-members and crankshaft rod journals: if you can't obtain a radius as a safety, undercutting the intersection with a stop drill works very well.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: polyspheric] #3098959
12/02/22 03:25 PM
12/02/22 03:25 PM
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Posts: 19,413
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
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basic machining 101...........radius all corners for strength.
beer

Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: moparx] #3099035
12/02/22 06:37 PM
12/02/22 06:37 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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But... to add a radius, the existing surfaces must both be cut back by the radius dimension. This ruins the scraper, and changes the rod bearing size.


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Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: polyspheric] #3099263
12/03/22 05:06 PM
12/03/22 05:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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Originally Posted by polyspheric
But... to add a radius, the existing surfaces must both be cut back by the radius dimension. This ruins the scraper, and changes the rod bearing size.



hmmm........something i never thought of.
beer

Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: moparx] #3099298
12/03/22 07:19 PM
12/03/22 07:19 PM
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Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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On cranks, they cut a radius into the cheek adjacent to the rod journal (not the journal) so no finished machined surface is disturbed.


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Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Hot 340] #3099366
12/04/22 12:32 AM
12/04/22 12:32 AM
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Posts: 8,041
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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Mt Morris Michigan
After following this post and doing some research on windage including watching a couple vids from Engine Masters, I think my plan will be to get the Milodon 30931 pan with appropriate windage try for the 4.500 stroke and possibly a scraper. No fancy pans for me. If getting a scraper becomes to difficult than i simply wont use one. Thanks for posting because i had no plan of using a windage tray with this build before reading this post. Something else i learned with this windage research is there is as much HP to gain with scrapers and trays as there is with running less oil in the pan. Looks to me like some guys have too much oil in the pan.

Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: mopar dave] #3099396
12/04/22 08:38 AM
12/04/22 08:38 AM
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A shed in England
Tig Offline
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
After following this post and doing some research on windage including watching a couple vids from Engine Masters, I think my plan will be to get the Milodon 30931 pan with appropriate windage try for the 4.500 stroke and possibly a scraper. No fancy pans for me. If getting a scraper becomes to difficult than i simply wont use one. Thanks for posting because i had no plan of using a windage tray with this build before reading this post. Something else i learned with this windage research is there is as much HP to gain with scrapers and trays as there is with running less oil in the pan. Looks to me like some guys have too much oil in the pan.


It's not the HP for me, that's a bonus, it's the dropping oil pressure in the shut down that gets me worried. I run a rudimentary scraper and wndage tray on a 4.50 stroke wedge, it still loses around 25 psi shutting down. I have to run a shallow pan, min level and also use an accumulator. We lose about 40psi with the 5.00 stroke wedge, no windage tray or scraper as we didn't have one to fit at the time. It's obviously aerating the oil, the bearings check out OK but I'd still rather it didn't do it at all.


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Tig] #3099401
12/04/22 09:02 AM
12/04/22 09:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,130
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
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Originally Posted by Tig

It's not the HP for me, that's a bonus, it's the dropping oil pressure in the shut down that gets me worried. I run a rudimentary scraper and wndage tray on a 4.50 stroke wedge, it still loses around 25 psi shutting down. I have to run a shallow pan, min level and also use an accumulator. We lose about 40psi with the 5.00 stroke wedge, no windage tray or scraper as we didn't have one to fit at the time. It's obviously aerating the oil, the bearings check out OK but I'd still rather it didn't do it at all.

Despite all the things I did to my pan, etc., I'm still waiting to find out if I have an issue w/ pressure loss after a full pass. If so, guess my next step is some form of oil accumulator to keep the system pressurized. work


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Tig] #3099410
12/04/22 10:07 AM
12/04/22 10:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,041
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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I would have to take a peak at my inside vids going down track, but as i remember i had about 55psi going down track and this is a 408, so 4.000 stroke. That would only be about a 5psi drop. It did not have a windage tray or scraper. My current 511with 4.250 stroke has a tray only and losses nothing going down track. It uses a milodon pump.

Last edited by mopar dave; 12/04/22 10:30 AM.
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: mopar dave] #3099470
12/04/22 12:53 PM
12/04/22 12:53 PM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Irving, TX
Keep in mind that windage trays and scrapers are two different things that do different jobs.

The scraper gets parasitic oil off the rotating assembly. That reduces weight and helps get the oil back to work. The portion of the scraper that is not scraping affects windage but in an unpredictable manner. There's still all kinds of buffeting and a hefty oil mist hurricane in the crankcase.

A windage tray is used to prevent that hurricane from frothing the oil in the pan. You need that bucket of oil down there to be on its best behavior. A relaxed pool is needed for more reliable pump pickup and steady pressure.

If winds are gusting to 60 mph you close the doors and windows, right?

Use the scraper to get oil off the spinny bits at high rpm.
Use the tray to relax the oil in the pan.
Use baffles to keep the oil near the pick up screen.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: Hot 340] #3099515
12/04/22 02:44 PM
12/04/22 02:44 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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New York
A deep pan offers several advantages, of which the most obvious is more oil capacity.
It also allow the oil to rest farther below the crank's spinning bits, and increases the air volume above the oil level. This acts as a buffer against crankcase pressure spikes.


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Re: Windage Trays...for big blocks [Re: polyspheric] #3099516
12/04/22 02:50 PM
12/04/22 02:50 PM
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Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Tom Hoover used to say the in Chrysler Performance Clinics back in the day, that once you used a windage tray no horsepower improvements in the pan were effective.

All the engine saw was the windage tray.

If I recall correctly he thought there were still applications for them but the better the pan the less need for the tray.

At least this is they way I remember it but it was a long time ago.

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