Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3079016
09/20/22 12:17 PM
09/20/22 12:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,863 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,863
MI, usa
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What makes you think it's spinning down track? The only time I've ever had trouble beyond 60 ft is when the rear compression was too tight. Mine is ladder bar. I/C is 37" out about 7.5" up. 55% 0n the nose. 3330lbs 10.5wx31 Doug
Last edited by dvw; 09/20/22 12:21 PM.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3079019
09/20/22 12:22 PM
09/20/22 12:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,115 Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,115
Byron, NY
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Yes a long low intersect point will maintain traction further down track and will react slower to change (both imperfections in track surface and launch) but from your attachment your way out there now....I'd lower the bottom bar down one hole (axle and chassis) maintaining an upward pitch of the lower bar, and set the top bar to get and intersect around 55" and just above the Neutral line. Your issue is likely caused by how close to parallel the bars are creating little to no down track lift.
Last edited by W.I.N. Racing; 09/20/22 12:25 PM.
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60 '01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust, '05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list '60 Willys CJ5 '01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison '64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3079038
09/20/22 01:25 PM
09/20/22 01:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638
Fulton County, PA
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I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque. 3100 @ 800HP should be a 9 flat @ 150 in the 1/4 player. 5.70 in the 1/8. 60' is a tenth slow, at least, all based on the HP number. Weight bias is better than a lot of them. Was this on a happy dyno? Not being a wise guy. Just crunching the numbers. If it's really 800, something is going on in the car. The numbers you give work out to be maybe 670 HP at the wheels on my dreamwheel. 68" is way too long for your HP. 14" is way too high. You have no downforce down track. Your bars are basically parallel. Looking at your graph - take the bottom bar out, put it in the bottom hole on the housing and make it level to 1 or 1 1/2 degrees down. Take the top bar out, move it up on the housing to get it 10 1/2 or 11" spread from the bottom bar. Put it in the chassis bracket at about 15 degrees down. Looking for 48-52" out or so. Figure on tightening the shocks some to control the hit, depending on what low gear is. This isn't overly aggressive. I have heavy stick cars that are faster than 6.0 set up like this. Dead hook, repeat like a dragster on tracks other people can't get down, will go high 1.20s in 60 if he gets after the clutch. He does have good shocks on it. The 4 link brackets are high in the car so you are limited somewhat. Can the car be lowered? Doing that will get the brackets down and the geometry a little better.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 09/20/22 01:30 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3079052
09/20/22 01:58 PM
09/20/22 01:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377
Las Vegas
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As mentioned move the IC back and down. I would also move that top bar further away from the housing for more leverage, if it were mine I woudl go right the top hole. That alone will move the IC closer to ideal...
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3079097
09/20/22 05:38 PM
09/20/22 05:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880 Missouri
jwb123
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880
Missouri
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I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque. 3100 @ 800HP should be a 9 flat @ 150 in the 1/4 player. 5.70 in the 1/8. 60' is a tenth slow, at least, all based on the HP number. Weight bias is better than a lot of them. Was this on a happy dyno? Not being a wise guy. Just crunching the numbers. If it's really 800, something is going on in the car. The numbers you give work out to be maybe 670 HP at the wheels on my dreamwheel. 68" is way too long for your HP. 14" is way too high. You have no downforce down track. Your bars are basically parallel. Looking at your graph - take the bottom bar out, put it in the bottom hole on the housing and make it level to 1 or 1 1/2 degrees down. Take the top bar out, move it up on the housing to get it 10 1/2 or 11" spread from the bottom bar. Put it in the chassis bracket at about 15 degrees down. Looking for 48-52" out or so. Figure on tightening the shocks some to control the hit, depending on what low gear is. This isn't overly aggressive. I have heavy stick cars that are faster than 6.0 set up like this. Dead hook, repeat like a dragster on tracks other people can't get down, will go high 1.20s in 60 if he gets after the clutch. He does have good shocks on it. The 4 link brackets are high in the car so you are limited somewhat. Can the car be lowered? Doing that will get the brackets down and the geometry a little better. The dyno is my own, an old land and sea. It has an 800hp advertised capacity so that may have inflated the numbers a little. I ran the 6.0 @ 114 with the converter slipping, shift light never went off entire run, set at 7,000 rpm I was looking for it to run 9.50's as a goal. Last weekend I was leaving on foot brake at 1,500rpm and hitting the throttle. Had to lift on every run due to loosing traction on the big end. Last run was a 6.40 @ 80mph Car has 4.30 gears with a 2.74 low in the transmission. I was thinking about taking the low first gear out and going back to the stock 2.45 since the new engine has so much torque.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3079119
09/20/22 07:25 PM
09/20/22 07:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,516 PA
moparacer
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,516
PA
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Like Cole said try to lower the car in the rear so it lowers the frame mounts and get that bottom bar in the lower hole running downhill a degree or so, raise the top bar in the rear, and lower the top front to get you out there 50 inches or so. Also make sure your shocks are set up with travel that favors the extension side too.
That should get it down the track.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3082803
10/03/22 12:50 PM
10/03/22 12:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880 Missouri
jwb123
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880
Missouri
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I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque. Well to update this thread and help anybody that would read it in the future I installed all new hiem joints in the 4-link, a couple were a little tight, but I don't think they were a problem. I set the four link with 149% antisquat instant center 11 inches high and 41 inches long. Had to re-adjust bar preload to get it to go straight first. Hit is a little aggressive, but since I had my shocks set at zero on the extension, I went 10 clicks firmer and it calmed down the wheelstands a little, and it hooked down track. went some low 6's at 112 mph, in the 1/8 mile The track was prepped fairly well, so on a bad track it gives me some adjustment to make it hook harder.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: jwb123]
#3082849
10/03/22 02:00 PM
10/03/22 02:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638
Fulton County, PA
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I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque. Well to update this thread and help anybody that would read it in the future I installed all new hiem joints in the 4-link, a couple were a little tight, but I don't think they were a problem. I set the four link with 149% antisquat instant center 11 inches high and 41 inches long. Had to re-adjust bar preload to get it to go straight first. Hit is a little aggressive, but since I had my shocks set at zero on the extension, I went 10 clicks firmer and it calmed down the wheelstands a little, and it hooked down track. went some low 6's at 112 mph, in the 1/8 mile The track was prepped fairly well, so on a bad track it gives me some adjustment to make it hook harder. Big move. Now you know what that does for the car, and what the shocks can do for you as well. Still high. I expect the bottom bar is running up hill. Get that thing level and/or AS down closer to 0 and see what it does. Even if you have to move it up a hole on the housing. Learn some more. It may want some AS to keep from spinning as it goes out across the concrete. But if you keep it from separating, it should 60 better. As long as the bottom bars were set right before, don't even loosen the jam nuts. Just pull the bolts and move them. Bottom bars set wheelbase and square. That's it. Recheck/set pinion angle and preload with the top bars. Curious what it did to the 60s.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 10/03/22 02:03 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3082854
10/03/22 02:11 PM
10/03/22 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377
Las Vegas
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Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start..
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3083279
10/04/22 04:05 PM
10/04/22 04:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638
Fulton County, PA
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Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start.. Not sure how you get it that high. especially with the IC that short. Even if the car sits high, the chassis brackets need to be installed to get the geometry right. On a backhalf car that sits high, Super Stock car, etc, the bottom of the chassis bracket will be hanging lower than the frame rail typically. His graph looks like the housing brackets are up to date, but the chassis brackets are high in the car. Bottom hole of the chassis bracket should be ~ 8" from the ground. Maybe less depending on the design. If the bottom bar is level, the height of the IC is the height of the bar, regardless where the top bar is. I'd like to see what bottom hole on the chassis, next to bottom hole on the housing does to the bottom bar. Did you get the converter fixed? Drive to the stripe under power?
Last edited by CMcAllister; 10/04/22 04:07 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: dvw]
#3083316
10/04/22 05:51 PM
10/04/22 05:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,638
Fulton County, PA
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Ladder bar/4 link is a system. All the brackets need to be located in the proper location and geometry, according to the anticipated tire being used (height of the rear end C/L), and the chassis built to the brackets. Not the other way around. Just like building the rearend housing to the wheel/tire combination, rather than vice versa.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3083339
10/04/22 06:39 PM
10/04/22 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377
Las Vegas
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Well its not a gasser but didnt expect it was but with the IC that high just wanted to make sure...Love to see some pics at ride height and of the brackets being used..
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3083422
10/04/22 11:25 PM
10/04/22 11:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880 Missouri
jwb123
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 880
Missouri
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Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start.. Not sure how you get it that high. especially with the IC that short. Even if the car sits high, the chassis brackets need to be installed to get the geometry right. On a backhalf car that sits high, Super Stock car, etc, the bottom of the chassis bracket will be hanging lower than the frame rail typically. His graph looks like the housing brackets are up to date, but the chassis brackets are high in the car. Bottom hole of the chassis bracket should be ~ 8" from the ground. Maybe less depending on the design. If the bottom bar is level, the height of the IC is the height of the bar, regardless where the top bar is. I'd like to see what bottom hole on the chassis, next to bottom hole on the housing does to the bottom bar. Did you get the converter fixed? Drive to the stripe under power? It goes that high leaving at 1,500 rpm with the foot brake. It runs the fastest leaving about 2,500 rpm. It was leaving higher in the air until I killed some hook with the shocks. And yes this converter is the best the car has ever had. And yes I drove it to the stripe. It ran a 6.23 @112mph leaving soft. The main thing I noticed was that after a run the tires had a much rougher texture that with the other setting. When it was breaking loose on the big end, the tires were a lot smoother after a run, so it appears to be pulling against the track harder.
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