Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
advice and suggestions on suspension settings #3078984
09/20/22 10:49 AM
09/20/22 10:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque.

Attached PDF document
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3079014
09/20/22 12:16 PM
09/20/22 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 16
MI
J
Jeff440sc Offline
member
Jeff440sc  Offline
member
J

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 16
MI
You did not mention what kind of car so not sure if you already have a wing or can install a wing or adjust the angle of the wing to put more downforce on the car. Changing the things you mentioned can affect how the car 60 foots, Do you have the time to experiment ? You don't want the car to dance or be light on the tires at the top end.. putting downforce on the car would help your issue.
If your tires are old start there.... more info needed to help you... but downforce is needed if your car is light or dancing unless your track or the tires are the issue... or reduce the air from getting under the car.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3079016
09/20/22 12:17 PM
09/20/22 12:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
What makes you think it's spinning down track? The only time I've ever had trouble beyond 60 ft is when the rear compression was too tight. Mine is ladder bar. I/C is 37" out about 7.5" up. 55% 0n the nose. 3330lbs 10.5wx31
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 09/20/22 12:21 PM.
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3079019
09/20/22 12:22 PM
09/20/22 12:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,102
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing Offline
top fuel
W.I.N. Racing  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,102
Byron, NY
Yes a long low intersect point will maintain traction further down track and will react slower to change (both imperfections in track surface and launch) but from your attachment your way out there now....I'd lower the bottom bar down one hole (axle and chassis) maintaining an upward pitch of the lower bar, and set the top bar to get and intersect around 55" and just above the Neutral line. Your issue is likely caused by how close to parallel the bars are creating little to no down track lift. twocents

Last edited by W.I.N. Racing; 09/20/22 12:25 PM.

'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: Jeff440sc] #3079032
09/20/22 12:58 PM
09/20/22 12:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
NSS so no wings, but I agree that would be an easy quick solution.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: dvw] #3079033
09/20/22 12:59 PM
09/20/22 12:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
I bae the spinning on the fact that the car starts to drift sideways, and when you lift off the gas it snaps back straight.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3079038
09/20/22 01:25 PM
09/20/22 01:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
C
CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
Mr. Helpful
C

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by jwb123
I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque.


3100 @ 800HP should be a 9 flat @ 150 in the 1/4 player. 5.70 in the 1/8. 60' is a tenth slow, at least, all based on the HP number. Weight bias is better than a lot of them.
Was this on a happy dyno? Not being a wise guy. Just crunching the numbers. If it's really 800, something is going on in the car. The numbers you give work out to be maybe 670 HP at the wheels on my dreamwheel.

68" is way too long for your HP. 14" is way too high. You have no downforce down track. Your bars are basically parallel.

Looking at your graph - take the bottom bar out, put it in the bottom hole on the housing and make it level to 1 or 1 1/2 degrees down. Take the top bar out, move it up on the housing to get it 10 1/2 or 11" spread from the bottom bar. Put it in the chassis bracket at about 15 degrees down. Looking for 48-52" out or so. Figure on tightening the shocks some to control the hit, depending on what low gear is. This isn't overly aggressive. I have heavy stick cars that are faster than 6.0 set up like this. Dead hook, repeat like a dragster on tracks other people can't get down, will go high 1.20s in 60 if he gets after the clutch. He does have good shocks on it.

The 4 link brackets are high in the car so you are limited somewhat. Can the car be lowered? Doing that will get the brackets down and the geometry a little better.


Last edited by CMcAllister; 09/20/22 01:30 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3079052
09/20/22 01:58 PM
09/20/22 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
As mentioned move the IC back and down. I would also move that top bar further away from the housing for more leverage, if it were mine I woudl go right the top hole. That alone will move the IC closer to ideal...


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3079097
09/20/22 05:38 PM
09/20/22 05:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Originally Posted by jwb123
I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque.


3100 @ 800HP should be a 9 flat @ 150 in the 1/4 player. 5.70 in the 1/8. 60' is a tenth slow, at least, all based on the HP number. Weight bias is better than a lot of them.
Was this on a happy dyno? Not being a wise guy. Just crunching the numbers. If it's really 800, something is going on in the car. The numbers you give work out to be maybe 670 HP at the wheels on my dreamwheel.

68" is way too long for your HP. 14" is way too high. You have no downforce down track. Your bars are basically parallel.

Looking at your graph - take the bottom bar out, put it in the bottom hole on the housing and make it level to 1 or 1 1/2 degrees down. Take the top bar out, move it up on the housing to get it 10 1/2 or 11" spread from the bottom bar. Put it in the chassis bracket at about 15 degrees down. Looking for 48-52" out or so. Figure on tightening the shocks some to control the hit, depending on what low gear is. This isn't overly aggressive. I have heavy stick cars that are faster than 6.0 set up like this. Dead hook, repeat like a dragster on tracks other people can't get down, will go high 1.20s in 60 if he gets after the clutch. He does have good shocks on it.

The 4 link brackets are high in the car so you are limited somewhat. Can the car be lowered? Doing that will get the brackets down and the geometry a little better.


The dyno is my own, an old land and sea. It has an 800hp advertised capacity so that may have inflated the numbers a little. I ran the 6.0 @ 114 with the converter slipping, shift light never went off entire run, set at 7,000 rpm I was looking for it to run 9.50's as a goal. Last weekend I was leaving on foot brake at 1,500rpm and hitting the throttle. Had to lift on every run due to loosing traction on the big end. Last run was a 6.40 @ 80mph Car has 4.30 gears with a 2.74 low in the transmission. I was thinking about taking the low first gear out and going back to the stock 2.45 since the new engine has so much torque.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3079119
09/20/22 07:25 PM
09/20/22 07:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,491
PA
moparacer Offline
top fuel
moparacer  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,491
PA
Like Cole said try to lower the car in the rear so it lowers the frame mounts and get that bottom bar in the lower hole running downhill a degree or so, raise the top bar in the rear, and lower the top front to get you out there 50 inches or so. Also make sure your shocks are set up with travel that favors the extension side too.

That should get it down the track.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3082803
10/03/22 12:50 PM
10/03/22 12:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
Originally Posted by jwb123
I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque.

Well to update this thread and help anybody that would read it in the future I installed all new hiem joints in the 4-link, a couple were a little tight, but I don't think they were a problem. I set the four link with 149% antisquat instant center 11 inches high and 41 inches long. Had to re-adjust bar preload to get it to go straight first. Hit is a little aggressive, but since I had my shocks set at zero on the extension, I went 10 clicks firmer and it calmed down the wheelstands a little, and it hooked down track. went some low 6's at 112 mph, in the 1/8 mile The track was prepped fairly well, so on a bad track it gives me some adjustment to make it hook harder.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3082849
10/03/22 02:00 PM
10/03/22 02:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
C
CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
Mr. Helpful
C

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by jwb123
Originally Posted by jwb123
I will ask for any advice. 3,138 lbs car with driver. weight bias 48.6% on rear wheels, 120 lb rear springs, double adjustable shocks all four corners, anti squat set at 116% instant center length 68 inches 14 inches height. Car ran last year 6.0 @ 114 mph in the 1/8 with the converter slipping. Shift light never went off the entire run after launch. New converter problem fixed. Car leaves perfect, lifts the wheels about a foot and carries them out a little way. 1.35 60 foot, the Issue is the car wants to spin the tires at the end of the 1/8 mile. Tires are a couple years old but have lots of meat on them. The four link was put under the car 20 years ago. I am thinking for maintance the heim joints need replacing. Everything appears tight no cracks in brackets. My main question is would a longer lower instant center help plant the tires down track? Any other ideas on fixing the problem of breaking the tires loose down track? Engine makes 800HP and about 750 ft. lbs of torque.

Well to update this thread and help anybody that would read it in the future I installed all new hiem joints in the 4-link, a couple were a little tight, but I don't think they were a problem. I set the four link with 149% antisquat instant center 11 inches high and 41 inches long. Had to re-adjust bar preload to get it to go straight first. Hit is a little aggressive, but since I had my shocks set at zero on the extension, I went 10 clicks firmer and it calmed down the wheelstands a little, and it hooked down track. went some low 6's at 112 mph, in the 1/8 mile The track was prepped fairly well, so on a bad track it gives me some adjustment to make it hook harder.


Big move. Now you know what that does for the car, and what the shocks can do for you as well. Still high. I expect the bottom bar is running up hill. Get that thing level and/or AS down closer to 0 and see what it does. Even if you have to move it up a hole on the housing. Learn some more. It may want some AS to keep from spinning as it goes out across the concrete. But if you keep it from separating, it should 60 better.

As long as the bottom bars were set right before, don't even loosen the jam nuts. Just pull the bolts and move them. Bottom bars set wheelbase and square. That's it. Recheck/set pinion angle and preload with the top bars.

Curious what it did to the 60s.

Last edited by CMcAllister; 10/03/22 02:03 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3082854
10/03/22 02:11 PM
10/03/22 02:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start..


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3082917
10/03/22 04:24 PM
10/03/22 04:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
it did slow the 60 foot just a tad 1.35 is the best on the test and tune day 1.37 was the average.

bonne terre race.jpeg
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: Al_Alguire] #3083279
10/04/22 04:05 PM
10/04/22 04:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
C
CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
Mr. Helpful
C

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start..


Not sure how you get it that high. especially with the IC that short. Even if the car sits high, the chassis brackets need to be installed to get the geometry right. On a backhalf car that sits high, Super Stock car, etc, the bottom of the chassis bracket will be hanging lower than the frame rail typically.

His graph looks like the housing brackets are up to date, but the chassis brackets are high in the car. Bottom hole of the chassis bracket should be ~ 8" from the ground. Maybe less depending on the design. If the bottom bar is level, the height of the IC is the height of the bar, regardless where the top bar is. I'd like to see what bottom hole on the chassis, next to bottom hole on the housing does to the bottom bar.

Did you get the converter fixed? Drive to the stripe under power?

Last edited by CMcAllister; 10/04/22 04:07 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3083313
10/04/22 05:29 PM
10/04/22 05:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
Even though mine is ladder bar with only 36.5" I/C length, you can see here how far the location points are below the frame rail. Same body style. Bar is currently in the lowest hole. If memory serves me right it's about 7.5" from the ground.
Doug

S21.jpg
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: dvw] #3083316
10/04/22 05:51 PM
10/04/22 05:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
C
CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
Mr. Helpful
C

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,494
Fulton County, PA
Ladder bar/4 link is a system. All the brackets need to be located in the proper location and geometry, according to the anticipated tire being used (height of the rear end C/L), and the chassis built to the brackets. Not the other way around. Just like building the rearend housing to the wheel/tire combination, rather than vice versa.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3083339
10/04/22 06:39 PM
10/04/22 06:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Well its not a gasser but didnt expect it was but with the IC that high just wanted to make sure...Love to see some pics at ride height and of the brackets being used..


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: CMcAllister] #3083422
10/04/22 11:25 PM
10/04/22 11:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline OP
super stock
jwb123  Offline OP
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Maybe a picture of the car would help, maybe you have a relatively high ride height. But still seems like you I/C is WAY to high still. If I were giving generic advice I usually would say start with the I/C pointing at the bottom of the firewall...But that is a very GENERIC place to start..


Not sure how you get it that high. especially with the IC that short. Even if the car sits high, the chassis brackets need to be installed to get the geometry right. On a backhalf car that sits high, Super Stock car, etc, the bottom of the chassis bracket will be hanging lower than the frame rail typically.

His graph looks like the housing brackets are up to date, but the chassis brackets are high in the car. Bottom hole of the chassis bracket should be ~ 8" from the ground. Maybe less depending on the design. If the bottom bar is level, the height of the IC is the height of the bar, regardless where the top bar is. I'd like to see what bottom hole on the chassis, next to bottom hole on the housing does to the bottom bar.

Did you get the converter fixed? Drive to the stripe under power?

It goes that high leaving at 1,500 rpm with the foot brake. It runs the fastest leaving about 2,500 rpm. It was leaving higher in the air until I killed some hook with the shocks. And yes this converter is the best the car has ever had. And yes I drove it to the stripe. It ran a 6.23 @112mph leaving soft. The main thing I noticed was that after a run the tires had a much rougher texture that with the other setting. When it was breaking loose on the big end, the tires were a lot smoother after a run, so it appears to be pulling against the track harder.

Re: advice and suggestions on suspension settings [Re: jwb123] #3083460
10/05/22 07:38 AM
10/05/22 07:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
Rough feathered tires are an indication of spin.
Doug

Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1