Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: volaredon]
#3062254
07/25/22 12:36 AM
07/25/22 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
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It didn't used to not be necessary and then it became a thing. My guess is that it is mostly marketing but I could be wrong. Personally I don't use it on anything I build but I do know guys who swear by it. It would cost a ton of money to answer the question and the answer would most likely piss off some big boys who make a lot of money selling things so I doubt the test will ever be run.
Best bet if you want an honest answer is to find an engineer who works in engine development at an OEM and ask if they use break in oil for production engines. From what I've heard, they don't. Factory fill with synthetic and ship them out the door.
Last edited by AndyF; 07/25/22 12:36 AM.
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: AndyF]
#3062293
07/25/22 07:04 AM
07/25/22 07:04 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,227 nowhere
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It didn't used to not be necessary and then it became a thing. My guess is that it is mostly marketing but I could be wrong. Personally I don't use it on anything I build but I do know guys who swear by it. It would cost a ton of money to answer the question and the answer would most likely piss off some big boys who make a lot of money selling things so I doubt the test will ever be run.
Best bet if you want an honest answer is to find an engineer who works in engine development at an OEM and ask if they use break in oil for production engines. From what I've heard, they don't. Factory fill with synthetic and ship them out the door. Difference is that todays and for a long time these have been roller cams going out the door from the OEM's. Pretty sure there is no OEM engineer that has any recent experience with flat tappet cams in a production environment. Myself I don't worry about it, but the only cam I am running right now is a flat tappet solid lifter cam in a Chrysler flathead six that has just about no valve spring pressure to speak of and a very low red line. It is my opinion that valve spring pressure and RPM are the biggest factors and my engine has practically none of either. I'll coat it with STP and run it.
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3062340
07/25/22 10:20 AM
07/25/22 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,311 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Back in the day (50 years) iirr engines came with non-detergent oil, after 500 miles it was changed to detergent, 30 or 40 weight. Nothing like out there today. bu the question is did that none detergent oil have ZDDP in it? My guess is yes as flat tappet camshaft failure was one of the reasons it was added to the oil somewhere in the 30's according to current information. Previously read info claimed 1920 or so. Also 50 years ago was 1972 and I believe the era you were referring to is the 1940- to early 50's
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: volaredon]
#3062350
07/25/22 10:43 AM
07/25/22 10:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
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Agreed to call the cam people but honestly I would use as much zinc/ZDDP as possible. Break in oil has that in it. Old oil had lots of zinc/ZDDP in it and helped with flat tappet break in. New engines use roller tappets/rockers for friction reduction but as a side bonus need less zinc/ZDDP in the oil. The feds a few years back required a reduction in zinc/ZDDP supposedly to help lengthen the life of Catalytic convertors. I believe it was to cause old engine to wear out faster forcing you to buy newer crapboxes. Once the cam is broken in (500 miles-ish) you can swap oil and use what you want, but for the break in I would use the break in oil or additives. On one side you may waste some money, on the other side you will be tearing down, cleaning everything and replacing the cam/lifters. Add to that lots of work and collateral expenses, oil, gaskets, etc. Congrats on the leaning tower of power Often they are overlooked.
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: volaredon]
#3062355
07/25/22 11:01 AM
07/25/22 11:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,840 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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My advice is to not go bananas with zddp.
Much above 1400-1500 PPM is rather well documented over many years to cause corrosive wear when the additive is exposed to moisture and high temperatures and degrades into an acid, spalling, pitting, bearing flaking, especially if subjected to regular passenger car oil change intervals.
It would probably be fine to exceed 1500 for break in only, and then drain. Similar to how some of us would add a little more than recommended GM EOS to Valvoline racing or Castrol GTX in the '80s for that purpose, but the idea is to break in and then dump it fairly quickly because of the above problem.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: volaredon]
#3062363
07/25/22 11:24 AM
07/25/22 11:24 AM
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That flathead is probably the closest thing anyone here has to a /6 like is the subject of the question. Just remember my solid tappet are of the mushroom variety. No idea if that wold make a difference though. I just run off the shelf 10w30 on the original engine, which I have no idea how many miles are on it. The 230 I am building to swap in will run the same. Remember the stock valve spring pressures for my engine are 107-115 open and 40-45 closed. Pretty wimpy. Cam has .375" lift, intake duration at .050 is 208, exhaust duration at .050 is 210, advertised is 250/272 pretty wimpy.
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: TJP]
#3062496
07/25/22 04:29 PM
07/25/22 04:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,236 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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Back in the day (50 years) iirr engines came with non-detergent oil, after 500 miles it was changed to detergent, 30 or 40 weight. Nothing like out there today. bu the question is did that none detergent oil have ZDDP in it? My guess is yes as flat tappet camshaft failure was one of the reasons it was added to the oil somewhere in the 30's according to current information. Previously read info claimed 1920 or so. Also 50 years ago was 1972 and I believe the era you were referring to is the 1940- to early 50's Dodge shop 1970, so 52 years. Other than brand Oil selection was next to nothing then.
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: A12]
#3062505
07/25/22 04:52 PM
07/25/22 04:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,499 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/05/18/ask-away-jeff-smith-cylinder-wall-glazing-get-rid/From the article: "So the obvious message here is to properly break in the engine using high quality lubricants designed specifically for engine break-in.
There are dozens of boutique engine break-in oils and several companies, like Driven Racing Oil, offer different styles based on viscosity and application.
It would take perhaps an entire story on all the different break-in oils and why each has a place, but perhaps among the important points is that sufficient levels of high-pressure lubricants like zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is more important for proper break-in of a flat tappet cam than for ring break-in. In fact, levels in excess of 1,500 to 2,000 parts-per-million (ppm) of ZDDP can contribute to cylinder wall glazing—especially if this oil is combined with excessive engine idling for an excessive period of time.
So be careful because too much of a good thing like ZDDP can create poor results."
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Re: Break in oil really necessary?
[Re: A12]
#3062514
07/25/22 05:37 PM
07/25/22 05:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,545 Seattle, WA
375inStroke
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Generally, break in oil is very low on detergents, which counteract the chemical bonding of the ZDDP and other anti-wear additives. You also have to consider you need the piston rings and cylinder walls to mate to each other. I have no idea how mixing chemicals together in your crankcase are going to affect your cam and your rings. I'd stick with specific break in oil. My Lunati cam came with Joe Gibbs Racing Driven cam lube, so I just got some of their break in oil from Summit, along with their Hot Rod oil which is designed for old cars with flat tappet cams that may sit a long time, like through the winter, without running.
Last edited by 375inStroke; 07/25/22 08:13 PM.
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