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12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
#3060656
07/19/22 06:13 PM
07/19/22 06:13 PM
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hp383
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I recently picked up a 77 Fury with the standard electronic ignition.
Previous owner had done plugs, wires, coil, etc. As part of a tune up. I have found that the coil is a parts store 12 volt coil.
Is that correct when using a ballast resistor to the coil? I had thought the resistor was used to drop the voltage to the coil, and a 6 volt coil was the correct part. I looked up replacement coils and they are 6 volt for the 77 application.
It's been a long time since I've had an older stock electronic ignition.
Which coil is correct? Of its supposed to be a 6 volt coil, will the 12 volt coil reduced performance, or cause a premature failure to the pickup coilbon the distributor?
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3060673
07/19/22 07:30 PM
07/19/22 07:30 PM
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hp383
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The coil Summit Racing listed as a "direct fit" replacement is a 6 volt coil.
Perhaps it's their sorting algorithm that's incorrect and the 12 volt coil is correct?
It's been 20+ years since I've had OEM electronic ignition.
I've been driving TBI and MPFI for some time now.
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: hp383]
#3060676
07/19/22 08:00 PM
07/19/22 08:00 PM
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So Cal
Sinitro
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The ignition system components should be matched to work the best... Note that the task of the ballast resistor is to prevent damage by high current, as the internal coil windings are a smaller gauge wire which is more fragile...... Just my $0.02... 
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Sinitro]
#3060690
07/19/22 08:41 PM
07/19/22 08:41 PM
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Sniper
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The ignition system components should be matched to work the best... Note that the task of the ballast resistor is to prevent damage by high current, as the internal coil windings are a smaller gauge wire which is more fragile...... Just my $0.02... This is correct, it also limits heating of the coil. The condenser is there to prevent points pitting, there are no points on an electronic ignition system and every mopar electronic ignition setup I ever seen, not counting EFI, uses a ballast. Not sure why the OP is seeing 6v listings, go look at RockAuto, every coil listed for a 77 Fury that gives a voltage rating all say 12v.
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Sniper]
#3060721
07/19/22 09:34 PM
07/19/22 09:34 PM
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Sinitro
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The ignition system components should be matched to work the best... Note that the task of the ballast resistor is to prevent damage by high current, as the internal coil windings are a smaller gauge wire which is more fragile...... Just my $0.02... This is correct, it also limits heating of the coil. The condenser is there to prevent points pitting, there are no points on an electronic ignition system and every mopar electronic ignition setup I ever seen, not counting EFI, uses a ballast. Not sure why the OP is seeing 6v listings, go look at RockAuto, every coil listed for a 77 Fury that gives a voltage rating all say 12v. Several years back.. MSD made (2) ECU boxes with the Mopar 4 pin OE connector, when installing these MSD recommended NO ballast resistor was required. In fact they actually provided a wire lead to jump and bypass the ballast resistor. In my install I took another ballast resistor, gutted it and put in a straight wire so when installed it looked OE. Just my $0.02...
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Sinitro]
#3060735
07/19/22 10:45 PM
07/19/22 10:45 PM
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Sniper
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The ignition system components should be matched to work the best... Note that the task of the ballast resistor is to prevent damage by high current, as the internal coil windings are a smaller gauge wire which is more fragile...... Just my $0.02... This is correct, it also limits heating of the coil. The condenser is there to prevent points pitting, there are no points on an electronic ignition system and every mopar electronic ignition setup I ever seen, not counting EFI, uses a ballast. Not sure why the OP is seeing 6v listings, go look at RockAuto, every coil listed for a 77 Fury that gives a voltage rating all say 12v. Several years back.. MSD made (2) ECU boxes with the Mopar 4 pin OE connector, when installing these MSD recommended NO ballast resistor was required. In fact they actually provided a wire lead to jump and bypass the ballast resistor. In my install I took another ballast resistor, gutted it and put in a straight wire so when installed it looked OE. Just my $0.02... You can do the same thing by stuffing an HEI module inside a MoPar box. All they are doing is using a semiconductor to limit the current rather than a ballast. Same destination, different paths. Many ways to skin a cat, some simple, some complex.
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: SportF]
#3060878
07/20/22 11:08 AM
07/20/22 11:08 AM
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I've never heard of a six volt coil being used on any Mopar since 1955  What I do remember about all ignition coils being used with points after 1956 was that the ballast STEP DOWN resistor lowered the voltage to the coil after the engine was running to help stop the points from pitting faster with the higher volts from the 12V system  In all of these discussions over the years this may be the first time I have seen the reason for a ballast resistor describes succinctly and correctly. Thank you Cab. Except it is wrong
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: SportF]
#3061102
07/20/22 09:17 PM
07/20/22 09:17 PM
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Sinitro
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Well, if you think the resistor is to protect the coil, how can you put that same coil on an MSD ignition, get 2 sparks below 3K, and far far more amp spark with out a resistor. Actually, you put 200 plus volts to the coil with the MSD. Also, if it was to protect the coil, why didn't somebody come up with a better coil in all those years? Open to suggestions or info. Because the key point is called duty cycle..The MSD box does fire the coil 2X(below 3K rpm) but the duration time is less than conventional ignition systems... Just my $0.02...
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Sniper]
#3061159
07/21/22 02:47 AM
07/21/22 02:47 AM
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Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I've never heard of a six volt coil being used on any Mopar since 1955 What I do remember about all ignition coils being used with points after 1956 was that the ballast STEP DOWN resistor lowered the voltage to the coil after the engine was running to help stop the points from pitting faster with the higher volts from the 12V system In all of these discussions over the years this may be the first time I have seen the reason for a ballast resistor describes succinctly and correctly. Thank you Cab. Except it is wrong Meaning what?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3061218
07/21/22 07:22 AM
07/21/22 07:22 AM
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VA
dragon slayer
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You need to just read a little on Voltage versus current. Kind a like the difference between pressure and volume in a fluid system. They are not the same, but they are related.
Think of a wire rating. Current determines the size of the copper. The voltage rating is based on the insulation. It is current that charges the coil. Voltage is the potential that pushes the current. No voltage, no current, no path to complete circuit no current. Disconnect the ground wire on the coil that goes to a point system and turn on the ignition and measure voltage. You will read 12 at the + and negative terminal, yet there is no charge in the coil to fire the spark plug. It is current that creates the magnetic field in the coil that collapses and creates the High voltage that fires the plug on the secondary side. That is high voltage low current. Can't create or destroy energy in a system. Think transformer. Which an induction coil IS NOT, but a CD system behaves that way. Your talking apples and oranges.
There are better coils made GM made them. They can charge faster and endure the higher current charge, but they are bigger. The faster the coil charges the higher the rpm the motor can go.
The ignition is a system and all the component in the system see the voltage and current. Why do high current draw system on your car have replaceable relays vice just operate off the wire directly? There is an optimal current that the points can absorb without rapid wear. There is an optimal current the coil can handle without overheating, all to create an optimal high voltage at the plug of about 15 to 20 thousand volts that can jump a spark plug in less-than-optimal conditions. Cold, bad fuel fouled etc..., at an rpm of less than about 5200. That is the point system. The initial Electronic was about the same rpm, because they used the same coil, you just eliminated the wear and adjustment of points/gap.
Jumper the ballast an run your car. The coil will over heat and become erratic, before the points wear, but keep changing coils as you burn them up and you also have to change the point rather quickly because they have burned away also.
The ballast protect the coil but also establishes the max current that the points can handle with a reasonable wear per time.
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: dragon slayer]
#3061220
07/21/22 07:27 AM
07/21/22 07:27 AM
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Almost Heaven
Bob Stinson
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I have seen and heard many people say you do not need a ballast in a Mopar electronic system if you have a coil capable of operating at a full 12v, such as an MSD Blaster. Is that true or not?
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Bob Stinson]
#3061247
07/21/22 09:36 AM
07/21/22 09:36 AM
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Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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I have seen and heard many people say you do not need a ballast in a Mopar electronic system if you have a coil capable of operating at a full 12v, such as an MSD Blaster. Is that true or not?
Well, I'll tell you this: what Dragon Slayer wrote emphasizes the points-based "duty-cycle" limits, which is all great, but since I've never actually ran a points-based system I'm still not sure how this applies to a pure electronics based setups? My thinking for a quasi-standard Mopar Chrome box configuration is as follows: - if I have a coil that supports the full voltage and will NOT burn out early, I might as well do so - I therefore gutted the factory ballast resitor and soldered in a straight wire - the coil is the Accel Yellow Tower, ECU is the MP Chrome Box RESULTS: I have been running this way for about 5 yrs now (summer cruising season to be clear), the spark is hot enough to let me run a 0.045" gap on a 10:1 motor (street), plugs stay clean, motor does not load up or break up at higher RPM. In other words, here it seems to work. Now, to prove it out I had actually picked up a KAL Equip 'Spark Tester', model# KM2969. This thing is supposed to be able to measure Spark: Peak (Kv), Burn (Kv) and Burn Time (ms). The problem was that this was an eBay purchase and subsequently I have no manual to rely on, nor do I know for a fact that the results are correct. Anyways...tried a few things, but results were pretty much the same regardless of whether I was running the resistor or not. BTW - If anyone out there does actually have the manual for this thing, please, please...send it my way!!! LOL
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: dragon slayer]
#3061302
07/21/22 12:21 PM
07/21/22 12:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,126
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
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You need to just read a little on Voltage versus current. Kind a like the difference between pressure and volume in a fluid system. They are not the same, but they are related.
Think of a wire rating. Current determines the size of the copper. The voltage rating is based on the insulation. It is current that charges the coil. Voltage is the potential that pushes the current. No voltage, no current, no path to complete circuit no current. Disconnect the ground wire on the coil that goes to a point system and turn on the ignition and measure voltage. You will read 12 at the + and negative terminal, yet there is no charge in the coil to fire the spark plug. It is current that creates the magnetic field in the coil that collapses and creates the High voltage that fires the plug on the secondary side. That is high voltage low current. Can't create or destroy energy in a system. Think transformer. Which an induction coil IS NOT, but a CD system behaves that way. Your talking apples and oranges.
There are better coils made GM made them. They can charge faster and endure the higher current charge, but they are bigger. The faster the coil charges the higher the rpm the motor can go.
The ignition is a system and all the component in the system see the voltage and current. Why do high current draw system on your car have replaceable relays vice just operate off the wire directly? There is an optimal current that the points can absorb without rapid wear. There is an optimal current the coil can handle without overheating, all to create an optimal high voltage at the plug of about 15 to 20 thousand volts that can jump a spark plug in less-than-optimal conditions. Cold, bad fuel fouled etc..., at an rpm of less than about 5200. That is the point system. The initial Electronic was about the same rpm, because they used the same coil, you just eliminated the wear and adjustment of points/gap.
Jumper the ballast an run your car. The coil will over heat and become erratic, before the points wear, but keep changing coils as you burn them up and you also have to change the point rather quickly because they have burned away also.
The ballast protect the coil but also establishes the max current that the points can handle with a reasonable wear per time. MY,my,my, who understands what Do you know about resistance, AKA OHMs? how about MHO, conductance? How about volts, amps, watts and their relationship to each other in both direct circuits and alternating circuits? electricity? Do you know what a coil is? Is it a transformer? Is it a step up or step down transformer? AKA, a ignition coil is a step up transformer, it converts 12.+ volts or whatever the voltage is to the coil to fire the spark plugs: work: The coil will produce enough VOLTAGE to jump the EASEST gap, the spark plug gap or the gap out of a wire to a ground  At idle when warm it may take 14,000 Volts to fire the plugs and at 7500 RPM at WOT it may take 40,000 Volts It would surprise me that today's ignition coils know the differences between 6.0 volts, 8.8, 12.6 and 200 volts on the input side  I got to thinking about coils last night and remember that all coils are not create equal. Some have different ratio of windings internally which affects the time it takes that coil to fire and how soon it can fire again, Mopar had a different coil deigned and made for the early Mopar race chrome box ignitions. MSD did the same thing when they came out with their first 404 series race boxes that require using the Mallory Pt# 28890 coil, it would multispark up to around 6000 RPM and then fire once for each distributor signal to that coil. Those coils would make a spark look like it came out of a welder when you held the coil wire away from a ground and tried cranking the motor over with the coil wire out, they hurt like holy HELL when you got shocked by one    CDI ignitions compared to point type ignitions do the same thing, they charge the coil to make it fire the spark plugs, correct Magneto due that also, correct? As far as current degerming the size of the wire how do you come up with that? The wire gauge, size, determines how much current, amperage, it will carry safely before failing, melting or blowing open I'm done  
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/21/22 12:26 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3061313
07/21/22 12:34 PM
07/21/22 12:34 PM
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I've never heard of a six volt coil being used on any Mopar since 1955 What I do remember about all ignition coils being used with points after 1956 was that the ballast STEP DOWN resistor lowered the voltage to the coil after the engine was running to help stop the points from pitting faster with the higher volts from the 12V system In all of these discussions over the years this may be the first time I have seen the reason for a ballast resistor describes succinctly and correctly. Thank you Cab. Except it is wrong Meaning what? Meaning the ballast resistor has diddly to do with points pitting, that is the condenser's job. Tell us why an electronic ignition system still uses a ballast if the ballast's job is to prevent points pitting.
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Re: 12 volt coil on an electronic ignition with ballast resistor
[Re: Sniper]
#3061348
07/21/22 01:44 PM
07/21/22 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
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VA
dragon slayer
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Jeez Cab pretty sensitive, I was answering another post, not yours specifically, but yes I know all those things. Have taken College course in them, trade course, and managed major electrical plants in a prior life. So yes I know V=IR, P=IV, DC, AC, freq, I even know about power factors and phasing. Even E=MCsq. And the various Laws for circuit analysis.
The coil does not act as a transformer in a points or electronic mopar system. Do you understand that. That is not the electrical process used. It stores a magnetic charge that is stepped up like a transformer, but it behaves as an inductor. Kettering system. A CD system uses the coil as a transformer, where the charge is stored in a capacitor and then released into the coil to step up the voltage. Very different process as a capacitor charges far faster than an inductor.
As far as the application to electronics, as another person asked, the reason it is applicable is because mopar used the same coil. Including a ballast. So in an apple to apple comparison it explains what is going on. The points replaced by the reluctor and the electronic transistor. Rest remained the same. The ballast limited current to the electronic box and to the coil via the double ballast. Later the electronic changed and only the coil ballast was required.
Fast forward to these later boxes and these after market coils an yes you may be able to remove the ballast.
As far as the orig mopar chrome box it went to low .25 ohm resistor and specific coil, but was still suppose to be race only, not street. Too much current to the coil and excess saturation at street cruising and idle. Over heat coil and reduce life of the box. Because dwell was fixed to a degree.
The vary latest electronic are micro processor controlled and can measure motor rpm from the reluctor voltage level and modify the dwell so that you can charge at high current but cut it off at saturation during low rpm operation.
There is a reason modern V8 use coil on plug. One coil only responsible for firing one plug. No way to spin high rpm otherwise with a stock mopar electronic system. MSD yes, mopar no.
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