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Borgeson steering box #3040057
05/05/22 07:06 PM
05/05/22 07:06 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Hello,]
I'm looking for reports from members that have installed one and have driven their cars. How many turns lock to lock? How does it feel in terms of on center steering response?
I've read about the reduced size and weight and the improved clearance for headers but I'd appreciate some comments about how the steering feel is as compared to the stock power steering. I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. There is still that dead area where the steering wheel moves before the linkage and tires do. I have other old cars with stock type setups and the dead spot is not as noticeable with the high boost and easy steering effort. The higher effort really highlights the dead spot. Once I get past the slop, the steering feels great ....
I drive a Ram 1500 with rack and pinion and even with 380,000 miles, it still is tight and responsive. I do understand that these stock steering units do have their limitations.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Kern Dog] #3040077
05/05/22 07:56 PM
05/05/22 07:56 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.

Last edited by mgoblue9798; 05/05/22 07:57 PM.
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: mgoblue9798] #3040106
05/05/22 09:28 PM
05/05/22 09:28 PM
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Florida
BDW Offline
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In the middle of a Gen3 swap and put in a Borgenson for clearance reasons.
It replaced a cop box I put in the 90's.
Honestly I wished I would have saved the $1k.
I'm sure others will claim huge difference, I don't drive the car hard, just a cruiser, but really can't tell any difference.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: mgoblue9798] #3040118
05/05/22 10:02 PM
05/05/22 10:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,988
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.


Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him.
It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort.
I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Kern Dog] #3040289
05/06/22 11:56 AM
05/06/22 11:56 AM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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Originally Posted by Kern Dog
Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.


Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him.
It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort.
I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.


I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake.

Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MarkZ] #3040297
05/06/22 12:17 PM
05/06/22 12:17 PM
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Mountain View, CA
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68rrunner Offline
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Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in.
HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MarkZ] #3040356
05/06/22 02:29 PM
05/06/22 02:29 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Mark don't you own a 5th avenue? Did you put the box in it?

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: 68rrunner] #3040376
05/06/22 03:50 PM
05/06/22 03:50 PM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in.
HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.


I remember reading on here about the alignment issues. Probably had something to do with the fact that the mounting ears were welded onto the housing and not cast with it like the new boxes. I've had a gen2 box on the car now for six years. Only issue I had was with trying to get the correct pump pressure. Finally sorted when I just got a pump from Borgeson.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: mgoblue9798] #3040377
05/06/22 03:51 PM
05/06/22 03:51 PM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Mark don't you own a 5th avenue? Did you put the box in it?


Yup. Used the large sector shaft version with a Bergman column adapter. Dad has the same setup in his Diplomat as well.

Last edited by MarkZ; 05/06/22 03:56 PM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MarkZ] #3040394
05/06/22 04:55 PM
05/06/22 04:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,988
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MarkZ


I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake.

Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.


Thank you. THIS is what I wanted to see.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: 68rrunner] #3040395
05/06/22 04:56 PM
05/06/22 04:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,988
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.


Holeeee crap....12 pounds ???

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Kern Dog] #3040408
05/06/22 06:16 PM
05/06/22 06:16 PM
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NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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I like the weight reduction as the biggest advantage for the Borgs'n box. Also, as claimed, the center dead spot -- common for all factory Chrysler ps boxes, is claimed to be gone... that would really like.

I recently had my T/A gearbox rebuilt by FF to their Stage-3.... its definitely better than the 50-year old T/A box... and it still has a slight center dead spot, but better than before.

I use the car primarily for pylon AX and HSAX/HPDE events (and its street/hwy driven to/from those events).

I also have a smaller steering wheel... 11.5" diameter... helps quicken the steering action while whipping through the pylons... overall setup is very good... excellent through the pylons and on the road course.

I'd be most curious to know what its like using the Borgns'n box WITH the longer arms (Fast Ratio Pitman and C-body idler... aka fast-ratio idler arm).... if it would be a little quicker than my current T/A setup... I'd be willing to change. Also, everyone should be aware that ONLY the SAGINAW ps pump is to be used for quick steering response... the Federal units fail to provide the assist at hi-rpms and rapid L-R-L-R motion.

Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 05/06/22 06:19 PM.

Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Kern Dog] #3040734
05/08/22 10:44 AM
05/08/22 10:44 AM
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I replaced a manual 20:1 box in my Coronet with a Borgeson a couple of years ago. One of the best mods I've made to my car. The 20:1 box was so stiff that I just couldn't enjoy the car around town. The Borgeson makes the car much easier to drive. I haven't had any issues with it. I've read comments about noises or wandering or poor on center feel but I don't have any issues with mine. I did have the alignment done by a pro and he had me replace the Firm Feel tie rod adjusters with shorter ones so he could get everything properly centered. He said the FFI tie rod adjusters were too long and they didn't have the proper adjustment range. I switched to a set from PST that were shorter and then he was able to get the front alignment dialed in.

I used a new Type II pump. The new pumps are much lighter than the old stuff. Aluminum pump housing with a plastic reservoir. I got the pump from Detroit Speed but lots of places sell them. Nobody makes a mounting kit so I had to fab my own. It would be a good kit to put on the market but I don't think I'm going to do it so someone else can take the idea and run with it if they want.

DSC_4716 (Large).JPG
Last edited by AndyF; 05/08/22 10:49 AM.
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #3041414
05/11/22 09:06 AM
05/11/22 09:06 AM
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If the Firm Feel tie rod adjusters were too long did they force the alignment to have too much toe-in? What alignment numbers did you end up with?

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: captaindodge] #3042819
05/16/22 03:03 PM
05/16/22 03:03 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.

I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box.
I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....

That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design.
For contrast.....
My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine.
For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop.
I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.


Last edited by Kern Dog; 05/16/22 03:03 PM.
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Kern Dog] #3042856
05/16/22 05:27 PM
05/16/22 05:27 PM
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So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by Kern Dog

I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.

I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box.
I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....

That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design.
For contrast.....
My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine.
For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop.
I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.



What power steering pump do you have. I was told by Lee Power Steering that not addressing a matched pump is often the cause of the noises and issue people have. The Saginaw's are better than the TRW/Eaton round cans. Getting the pressure and flow dialed in is important.

Don't shorten the pump lines. Ever notice some factory power steering pump lines seem unnecessarily long? It IS necessary so the rubber line has more time to dampen the harmonics from the pump into the steering gear.

Sometimes you'll see a odd joint in the middle of a pressure line and it goes from one size hose to another. Seems stupid because it's another place for a leak.... Well, that's to damping the harmonics also.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/16/22 05:54 PM.
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: autoxcuda] #3042879
05/16/22 06:35 PM
05/16/22 06:35 PM
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Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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68rrunner Offline
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Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: 68rrunner] #3042892
05/16/22 08:01 PM
05/16/22 08:01 PM
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So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.


What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ?

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: autoxcuda] #3042918
05/16/22 09:55 PM
05/16/22 09:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,988
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I have the common Saginaw pump.
Peter Bergman said in most cases, the Saginaw pump is fine. He did suggest to remove any pressure shim-washers that might have been put in to reduce the pump pressure. Mine is a parts house rebuild that I swapped in well over 12 years ago.
Great advice on the hoses, Steve. I'll heed your words!

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: autoxcuda] #3042930
05/16/22 11:25 PM
05/16/22 11:25 PM
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Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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68rrunner Offline
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Originally Posted by autoxcuda
Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.


What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ?


Without a double U joint I would imagine a binding issue or tight spots. We did a pretty extensive dive into this issue when they first hit the market.

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