Moparts

Borgeson steering box

Posted By: Kern Dog

Borgeson steering box - 05/05/22 11:06 PM

Hello,]
I'm looking for reports from members that have installed one and have driven their cars. How many turns lock to lock? How does it feel in terms of on center steering response?
I've read about the reduced size and weight and the improved clearance for headers but I'd appreciate some comments about how the steering feel is as compared to the stock power steering. I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. There is still that dead area where the steering wheel moves before the linkage and tires do. I have other old cars with stock type setups and the dead spot is not as noticeable with the high boost and easy steering effort. The higher effort really highlights the dead spot. Once I get past the slop, the steering feels great ....
I drive a Ram 1500 with rack and pinion and even with 380,000 miles, it still is tight and responsive. I do understand that these stock steering units do have their limitations.
Posted By: mgoblue9798

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/05/22 11:56 PM

Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 01:28 AM

In the middle of a Gen3 swap and put in a Borgenson for clearance reasons.
It replaced a cop box I put in the 90's.
Honestly I wished I would have saved the $1k.
I'm sure others will claim huge difference, I don't drive the car hard, just a cruiser, but really can't tell any difference.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.


Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him.
It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort.
I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.

No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.


Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him.
It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort.
I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.


I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake.

Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.
Posted By: 68rrunner

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 04:17 PM

Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in.
HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.
Posted By: mgoblue9798

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 06:29 PM

Mark don't you own a 5th avenue? Did you put the box in it?
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in.
HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.


I remember reading on here about the alignment issues. Probably had something to do with the fact that the mounting ears were welded onto the housing and not cast with it like the new boxes. I've had a gen2 box on the car now for six years. Only issue I had was with trying to get the correct pump pressure. Finally sorted when I just got a pump from Borgeson.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Mark don't you own a 5th avenue? Did you put the box in it?


Yup. Used the large sector shaft version with a Bergman column adapter. Dad has the same setup in his Diplomat as well.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by MarkZ


I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake.

Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.


Thank you. THIS is what I wanted to see.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service.
I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.


Holeeee crap....12 pounds ???
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/06/22 10:16 PM

I like the weight reduction as the biggest advantage for the Borgs'n box. Also, as claimed, the center dead spot -- common for all factory Chrysler ps boxes, is claimed to be gone... that would really like.

I recently had my T/A gearbox rebuilt by FF to their Stage-3.... its definitely better than the 50-year old T/A box... and it still has a slight center dead spot, but better than before.

I use the car primarily for pylon AX and HSAX/HPDE events (and its street/hwy driven to/from those events).

I also have a smaller steering wheel... 11.5" diameter... helps quicken the steering action while whipping through the pylons... overall setup is very good... excellent through the pylons and on the road course.

I'd be most curious to know what its like using the Borgns'n box WITH the longer arms (Fast Ratio Pitman and C-body idler... aka fast-ratio idler arm).... if it would be a little quicker than my current T/A setup... I'd be willing to change. Also, everyone should be aware that ONLY the SAGINAW ps pump is to be used for quick steering response... the Federal units fail to provide the assist at hi-rpms and rapid L-R-L-R motion.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/08/22 02:44 PM

I replaced a manual 20:1 box in my Coronet with a Borgeson a couple of years ago. One of the best mods I've made to my car. The 20:1 box was so stiff that I just couldn't enjoy the car around town. The Borgeson makes the car much easier to drive. I haven't had any issues with it. I've read comments about noises or wandering or poor on center feel but I don't have any issues with mine. I did have the alignment done by a pro and he had me replace the Firm Feel tie rod adjusters with shorter ones so he could get everything properly centered. He said the FFI tie rod adjusters were too long and they didn't have the proper adjustment range. I switched to a set from PST that were shorter and then he was able to get the front alignment dialed in.

I used a new Type II pump. The new pumps are much lighter than the old stuff. Aluminum pump housing with a plastic reservoir. I got the pump from Detroit Speed but lots of places sell them. Nobody makes a mounting kit so I had to fab my own. It would be a good kit to put on the market but I don't think I'm going to do it so someone else can take the idea and run with it if they want.


Attached picture DSC_4716 (Large).JPG
Posted By: captaindodge

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/11/22 01:06 PM

If the Firm Feel tie rod adjusters were too long did they force the alignment to have too much toe-in? What alignment numbers did you end up with?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/16/22 07:03 PM


I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.

I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box.
I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....

That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design.
For contrast.....
My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine.
For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop.
I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/16/22 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog

I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.

I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box.
I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....

That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design.
For contrast.....
My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine.
For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop.
I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.



What power steering pump do you have. I was told by Lee Power Steering that not addressing a matched pump is often the cause of the noises and issue people have. The Saginaw's are better than the TRW/Eaton round cans. Getting the pressure and flow dialed in is important.

Don't shorten the pump lines. Ever notice some factory power steering pump lines seem unnecessarily long? It IS necessary so the rubber line has more time to dampen the harmonics from the pump into the steering gear.

Sometimes you'll see a odd joint in the middle of a pressure line and it goes from one size hose to another. Seems stupid because it's another place for a leak.... Well, that's to damping the harmonics also.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: 68rrunner

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/16/22 10:35 PM

Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/17/22 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.


What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/17/22 01:55 AM

I have the common Saginaw pump.
Peter Bergman said in most cases, the Saginaw pump is fine. He did suggest to remove any pressure shim-washers that might have been put in to reduce the pump pressure. Mine is a parts house rebuild that I swapped in well over 12 years ago.
Great advice on the hoses, Steve. I'll heed your words!
Posted By: 68rrunner

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/17/22 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by autoxcuda
Originally Posted by 68rrunner
Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment.


What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ?


Without a double U joint I would imagine a binding issue or tight spots. We did a pretty extensive dive into this issue when they first hit the market.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Borgeson steering box - 05/17/22 01:10 PM

Bergman does appear to have the Borgeson setup sorted out. I know he was pretty active here on them and I believe he helped resolve some issue Borgeson had with it's first iterations.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 05/29/22 05:15 AM

I just finished the installation of the steering box.
For the full story, click on this link:


https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopa...n-steering-box-in-a-1970-charger.246108/
Posted By: A39Coronet

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 05/29/22 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
I just finished the installation of the steering box.
For the full story, click on this link:


https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopa...n-steering-box-in-a-1970-charger.246108/


Where did you get the "no cut" coupler? I literally just received my universal coupler from Jegs yesterday but may send it back if there's a no cut option.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 05/29/22 03:16 PM

Interested in hearing the driving impression
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 05/29/22 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by BDW
Interested in hearing the driving impression


Same here
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 05/30/22 01:59 AM

I posted a link to my thread at For B Bodies Only. At the moment, the site is down for some upgrade.
I don't mind sharing it to all that care to read.
Beforehand, I had a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Pitman and Idler arms. 2 3/4 turns lock to lock. Steering was very stiff once you got past the slop. The on center slop was similar to what a stock box has but since the steering effort was so high, there was a stark difference in feel between the slop and when the tires actually started to steer. It felt like manual steering with a slight assist.
This was annoying and NOT confidence inspiring. Driving on curvy roads meant crossing over the slop at every turn. Straight line driving meant frequent corrections to maintain a line.
In fairness, some of the poor characteristics could be blamed on wide tires and alignment....maybe.
I bought the steering box and associated parts from Bergman Auto Craft. In this $895 kit was the hybrid coupler that just slipped in place of the stock one...it has the splined end welded to it that fits the Borgeson box. There is no modification of any kind. This all fits without modification.
After filling the reservoir with AC/Delco fluid, I started the car and rotated the wheel left to right. This sucked the pump dry so I topped it off. The swap required almost a full quart of fluid. Steering now is much lighter and is 3 1/2 turns lock to lock like stock but the feel is vastly different. This box is a 14-1 ratio, stock is 15.7.
Steering effort can be described as follows.....If you rate a stock power steering car at a 0 and my Stage 3 box with Fast Ratio arms at 100, the Borgeson effort comes in around 35. It is power assisted but not boosted.
It feels much like a late model car where it is comfortable to steer without feeling like a workout. The wheel returns to center like it should. No buzzing or humming like I have heard from some. There is no slop at any point in the steering range. Response is immediate but not twitchy. It absolutely IS confidence inspiring.
Finally, I mean no ill will to Firm Feel. If I had this chuck of mine in another car with stock idler and Pitman arms, it wouldn't feel so bad. This project included a new coupler which replaced a seasoned unit that may have had some wear to it. The reduced steering ratio results in easier steering. The factory Mopar power steering was never intended to be a performance unit but was modified to be one.
However.... I had less than 15.000 miles on the FF box so I did expect a bit better life from it. I've driven a couple of cars with the Stage 2 unit and in retrospect, that is a better setup to live with if one were to choose a rebuild.
The Borgeson is almost double the cost and will be out of the reach for many people but the feel is far better. It gives owners an experience similar to a modern car.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/02/22 07:02 PM

I'm glad you're happy with the box. Nice writeup too. Next time the car is apart I'll add a zerk fitting to the coupler adapter - good idea.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/02/22 07:44 PM

Thank you. I took the idea from Mopar Action magazine tech editor Rick Ehrenberg. He used to post here occasionally.
My writing style with captions is a bit like his work as well.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/02/22 11:45 PM

Can you expand on this?

Is the 0 to 100 steering effort?
Over assisted stock is 0, too easy?
FF at 100 is to hard, like it's not even PS?
If that's the case, 35 seems a little low?

"Steering effort can be described as follows.....If you rate a stock power steering car at a 0 and my Stage 3 box with Fast Ratio arms at 100, the Borgeson effort comes in around 35. It is power assisted but not boosted.
It feels much like a late model car where it is comfortable to steer without feeling like a workout."
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/03/22 03:22 AM

Sorry if I didn't state it clear enough.
In an arbitrary and unscientific scale, let's say a stock Mopar with an overboosted power steering car rates a 0. My Firm Feel Stage 3 with Fast Ratio arms was at the other end of the scale so I rate that as a 100. The Borgeson feels about 1/3 as hard to turn as my old setup. Some of that is due to me returning to the stock length Pitman and Idler arms. Those really did increase the effort to steer.
In short, my old setup did feel like manual steering.
Posted By: DirectConnection

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/03/22 08:00 PM

Greg thx for the write up
could you show a pic looking down from the top to show coupler attachment
and alignment
are you bringing the car to de anza next week

thx Jim
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/04/22 04:36 AM

Here is the condition of the car right now.

Attached picture 73 R.JPG
Attached picture 75 R.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/04/22 04:39 AM

The steering coupler at rest is at a slight angle but not much. I centered the steering wheel by removing it and clocking the adapter.

Sad thing....The car was running great and while out test driving after the steering box installation, it started clattering and running rough. The oil pressure was fine so I relashed the valves. It ran quieter but still ran poorly. I pulled the intake and found 3 lobes going bad on the cam. Now with the engine out and cam & lifters on the bench, it looks like 7 lobes were going bad!
Posted By: DirectConnection

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/04/22 05:53 PM

that sucks been there
i hate to even ask what type of cam and the manufacturer
are you still going to make it to de anza or going to skip it
i probably will be selling some stuff
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/04/22 08:34 PM

I will be there as a spectator. I thought of selling stuff but I'm not sure yet.
The cam is a Mopar Performance 528 solid. The cam lost 7 lobes. It might have been oil related. I had a Lunati solid in there for awhile that still looked great when I pulled it. Last year I changed to a synthetic oil. Respected Mopar engine guy Dwayne Porter said that high detergent oils are bad for flat tappet engines because they can scrub the zinc off the surfaces instead of letting them in place to protect things. Also, he advised against using additives like I was using....the Comp Cams break in supplement. He said often times, the unique chemistries of the oil and the additives don't cooperate with each other and they can actually cancel each other out. This can make matters far worse than having no zinc in the oil at all.
Posted By: DirectConnection

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 12:27 AM

good info
i like your homemade engine trans cart
ill see you next sunday
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 12:42 AM

Good time to replaced the smashed header now that you have the extra room around the steering box. Are you going to stick with a flat tappet cam or step up to a hyd roller?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 05:38 AM

Smashed header....Yeah, if I wanted to spend $1000 for a set of headers, now would be the time. I have found that with the lift, header replacement isn't that hard to do. Maybe some time later.
I thought that I was solidly in the roller cam category but I have backed off from that. I knew it was more expensive but holy smokes....I'd be spending just shy of $3000 for what I'm told would be a minimal power increase. Add in the risk of over-revving and dealing with failed retrofit hydraulic roller lifters....No thanks. Cam. Lifters. Pushrods. Timing set with roller bearing, Cam button. Timing cover. Distributor drive. Did I miss anything? It would be a huge stroke of luck if all those parts were actually in stock right now too.
Dwayne Porter agreed with you, Andy...The solid flat tappet cams can be hard to beat. I have a Lunati that I ran for a few years that still is in excellent shape and the lifters were stored in order. Dwayne thinks my oil was possibly to blame for the failure of this 528. I measured the lobes today. 10 lobes lost.....I had a 1.56 number on 4 lobes and less than that on the other 10.

Attached picture 84 R.JPG
Attached picture 87 R (2).JPG
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 01:47 PM

Damn. That's a lot of shrapnel. How does the rest of the motor look? I rolled two lobes on a flat tappet in a SB once and ended up having to do a complete rebuild.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 03:44 PM

With all that steel powder going thru the engine you'll want to pull the oil pump and clean it/check it over as well as drop the oil pan and manually clean it out. You'll probably find some steel sludge in the pan.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/05/22 05:27 PM

I am going through all of it. New .040 pistons with a 24 cc dish to lower compression while gaining quench. I had .075 Cometic head gaskets in since 2014 and while it did achieve the lower compression I needed, I always knew that it was the least desirable way to get there. Back then I wasn't willing to pull the engine to do it this way.
New oil pump, rings, bearings, zero deck the block and a set of Fel Pro head gaskets. ( .039" compressed) I will end up at 9.8 to 1, approx .03 to 1 less than I was but with real quench this time.
Thanks for all the input, guys. I do appreciate it.
Posted By: mgoblue9798

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/06/22 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
I am going through all of it. New .040 pistons with a 24 cc dish to lower compression while gaining quench. I had .075 Cometic head gaskets in since 2014 and while it did achieve the lower compression I needed, I always knew that it was the least desirable way to get there. Back then I wasn't willing to pull the engine to do it this way.
New oil pump, rings, bearings, zero deck the block and a set of Fel Pro head gaskets. ( .039" compressed) I will end up at 9.8 to 1, approx .03 to 1 less than I was but with real quench this time.
Thanks for all the input, guys. I do appreciate it.


You no doubt are making the right choice going through that engine. No sense making a big problem even worse trying to patch it. I am curious to hear your opinion on the new combo v/s old once completed.
Posted By: DynoDave

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/06/22 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by DirectConnection
i like your homemade engine trans cart


Same here. And I have some of those kicking around. work
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/06/22 07:00 PM

Total cost was next to zero. I had the scrap steel out back, I had 5 of those wheel carts that some guy gave me. The only real out of pocket costs are the welding supplies that I'll need to replenish someday.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/10/22 08:25 PM

The engine is at the machine shop for bore-hone. I bought new pistons from 440 Source in .040 with a 24 cc dish. I'm having the block decked to arrive at a .005 deck clearance. This will give me a 9.7 to 1 ratio with quench.
I'm going to paint the engine with a spray gun using urethane enamel in GoManGo orange.
For the cam....I'm still undecided but currently contemplating the use of the Lunati solid flat tappet that I ran in the engine for a couple of years. It made great power but idled a bit rough and had low idle vacuum. I'm switching to a manual brake 15/16" master cylinder so idle vacuum won't be a concern.
The K member, steering and other components will get freshened up while they are out.
Posted By: mgoblue9798

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/13/22 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
The engine is at the machine shop for bore-hone. I bought new pistons from 440 Source in .040 with a 24 cc dish. I'm having the block decked to arrive at a .005 deck clearance. This will give me a 9.7 to 1 ratio with quench.
I'm going to paint the engine with a spray gun using urethane enamel in GoManGo orange.
For the cam....I'm still undecided but currently contemplating the use of the Lunati solid flat tappet that I ran in the engine for a couple of years. It made great power but idled a bit rough and had low idle vacuum. I'm switching to a manual brake 15/16" master cylinder so idle vacuum won't be a concern.
The K member, steering and other components will get freshened up while they are out.


The new motor having proper quench will make a significant difference in bottom end torque. Will help with cam manners some.

If using a urethane you want to use the correct hardener as well, and be sure to use a mask. Isocyanates are nothing to fool around with. If you don't have a paint booth with a fan to remove the overspray then paint it outside.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/13/22 11:06 PM

Thanks. I do use a respirator when I paint cars.
I didn't know that quench had such an effect on torque. This engine was never lacking but hey....more is better, right?
Posted By: JF_Moparts

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/16/22 10:08 PM

For those interested, I will be selling a pretty much brand new Borgeson Box in the next month or so. I had a unit in my Plymouth, less than 1,000 miles, and I've decided to go with Steer & Gear. I'm using the Bergman coupler.

Jim
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/17/22 01:02 AM

That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 06/17/22 06:46 PM

I have a buddy with a '70 Challenger who hates the factory PS. He has been driving new cars for 30 years and hates the "stick in a bucket of mud" feel of the factory PS on his Challenger. I told him about the Borgeson and he just ordered a complete kit yesterday.
Posted By: 375inStroke

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 07/24/22 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog

Beforehand, I had a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Pitman and Idler arms. 2 3/4 turns lock to lock. Steering was very stiff once you got past the slop. The on center slop was similar to what a stock box has but since the steering effort was so high, there was a stark difference in feel between the slop and when the tires actually started to steer. It felt like manual steering with a slight assist.
This was annoying and NOT confidence inspiring. Driving on curvy roads meant crossing over the slop at every turn. Straight line driving meant frequent corrections to maintain a line.


This is the best, most informative explanation on this subject I've ever read. I've got a cop box in the R/T, and with my alignment, it feels great to me. I hate how new cars never want to track straight, like there's too much stiffness on center, so I have to keep correcting, but I don't drive many new cars. You talked me into getting a Borgeson for the other Charger.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 07/24/22 02:24 PM

No charge from me. It is just one of the many services that I offer for free.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 07/25/22 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
No charge from me. It is just one of the many services that I offer for free.


And we appreciate it. Well except for one really cranky dude in your neck of the woods who doesn't seem to appreciate anything from anybody. But everyone else appreciates it.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 07/25/22 09:12 PM

Thanks..I was just being silly.
I enjoy reporting on my mistakes and successes with these projects. I often jump in and learn new things along the way that help. These forums allow us to share what we know and to learn from others.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/21/22 11:21 AM

I understand that this is the handling forum but I'm also one that appreciates when a thread is updated.
The engine has been in for about 5 weeks and has been running great. I've been struggling with the steering and brakes though. I installed a hydroboost system and had a lot of trouble getting it to function. I went through several power steering pumps. They kept failing. I got fed up and pulled the hydroboost setup and switched to a manual master cylinder. The steering pump was replaced again but in doing so, I found that the inline cooler had a kinked line. This made me wonder if that was responsible for the pumps failing along with the hydroboost never working.
As it stands now, the steering works perfectly but the brakes are not right. I have the Dr Diff 13" Cobra setup in the front and his 11.7" setup out back and a 15/16" manual master cylinder. Stopping at 20 mph or slower is great but over that, the pedal just isn't transmitting enough force to adequately slow the car down. It is clear that this car needs some manner of power assist.
I can reinstall the vacuum booster but this cam I'm using only makes 7" of idle vacuum. I have a good vacuum pump that I could use to bridge the gap.
I can also take another stab at the hydroboost setup. Maybe the kink in the return line caused the HB unit to not function properly.
Good news though...The car idles better than I recall. It sounds good, it runs strong. The car seems quieter going down the road compared to before. Fewer rattles, less road noise too. I made so many small changes, I don't know where the credit belongs. New motor mounts, new tie rod ends, upgraded sway bar end links and tight fasteners on everything that I pulled and reinstalled. Either my hearing is going or this car feels like it really improved during this project!

Attached picture 751 R.JPG
Attached picture 727 R.JPG
Attached picture 8100 H.jpg
Posted By: moparx

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/21/22 04:56 PM

your car looks fantastic ! up
as to your brakes, what pedal ratio do you have ?
beer
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/21/22 05:21 PM

Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/22/22 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by moparx
your car looks fantastic ! up
as to your brakes, what pedal ratio do you have ?
beer


First, thank you for the kind words.

By measuring them length from the center of the pedal pad to the hinge pin sleeve then dividing it by the distance between the pushrod hole and hinge pin, I get a pedal ratio of 8.13 to 1.
I've read pedal ratio numbers quoted as being 4 to 1 for manual and 2 to 1 for power which confuses me. How and where are they measuring to arrive at those numbers?

The measurement from the hinge pivot at the top to the center of the brake pedal pad is about 12 1/8". The center to center from the hinge pin to the pushrod hole is 1 3/4" stock, I drilled above the stock hole and it now sits at 1 1/2".

Attached picture 880 R.JPG
Attached picture 881 R.jpg
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/22/22 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by AndyF
Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.


The pedal effort is still too high for my liking. Today I started the change back to the power booster and vacuum pump. The pump makes 22" of vacuum and it worked great before.
I have wondered if the rear brakes are even working. I have a drum-drum distribution block in the car and the MC lines are oriented correctly. I have considered just running the brake lines from the MC to a T for the fronts and just directly to the rears with no distribution block but that block makes it convenient to tie them all together.
Can I gut the warning light feature from the distribution block and still use it or would it bleed pressure together for front and rear?
I have not tried verifying line pressure. How is that done?
Posted By: moparx

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/22/22 05:54 PM

to verify line pressure, you need some fittings to tie into your brake lines and at all four wheels, plus a 2000lb pressure gauge.
as Andy said, start at the master cylinder ports and work toward each wheel, checking before and after each junction [block] along the way.
beer
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/22/22 07:52 PM

I suppose with this gauge, you have to bleed the system each time you open a line somewhere?
This could get expensive. I'm using DOT 5 fluid at $40 a quart!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by AndyF
Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.


I felt that something was wrong and I may have stumbled upon it.

Today I got the manual MC out and the booster in. As I was bench bleeding the 1 1/8" MC, I noticed that the front port got the fluid first and the bubbles first. The rear port only started pushing fluid about 1/3 the way into the stroke. Usually, the front port serves the rear brakes while the rear port serves the front.
With the brake lines connected the traditional way, the REAR is getting pressure before the front.
This can't be right.
I tested a stock iron 15/16' MC and front and rear get pressure at the same time.
I tested the Dr Diff aluminum 15/16" MC and it was exactly like the larger 1 1/8" version: Pressure and bubbles at the front port before the rear.
There was no tech sheet in the box with these master cylinders but Mancini Racing includes this sheet:

Attached picture 892 R.jpg
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 05:33 AM

This really sucks and is a DISservice to the consumer.
I had the aluminum 15/16" MC in the car and really thought I had everything right, yet the car didn't feel right. I pulled that out and put the power booster and vacuum pump in today, THEN find that the ports might be reversed. The manual setup probably would have felt much better had there been SOME instructions like Mancini Racing includes with their MCs.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 01:50 PM

I don't know of any mopar using a three bolt attachment setup, what is the source for that Mancini unit? For the era in discussion the OEM M/C rear port feeds the front brakes, period. You cannot use what happens when bench bleeding the M/C as an assumption of what happens installed. Hydraulic pressure is what makes the internals all move when in operation, something you do not really have when you are bench bleeding a master. So you have to bottom out the rear piston before the front piston will move and that is mechanically done, not hydraulically.

Since you don't tell us the application for the master cylinders in question any further help is guess work.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 06:18 PM

I bench bled the iron 15/16" master cylinder that I had on the car before the teardown. It pushed fluid equally in time front and rear. The 2 aluminum 2 bolt units both pushed fluid first at the front ports.
The 1 1/8" master is OEM for the following:

RAYBESTOS MC39178 Specifications
Number of Ports 2
Primary Port Thread A 1/2"-20
Secondary Port Thread A 9/16"-20

The ports being different sizes does show it to have the traditional front to rear, rear to front arrangement.
The Mancini units are manufactured by Strange Engineering and use the same sized ports front and rear.

I'm anxious to find the causes for my crappy brakes and it seemed like I stumbled onto it. Maybe I didn't but it seems strange to have the rear brakes get pressure first.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper


Since you don't tell us the application for the master cylinders in question any further help is guess work.


Dr Diff supplied the 15/16" aluminum MC. He doesn't state what the original application was for it but he lists that it works for both disc-drum and 4 wheel disc. It could be a Raybestos unit but there are no markings on it to determine that.
The reservoir is divided somewhat but when I fill one side, the other does fill up as well.
The 1 1/8" unit is a Raybestos model. It came in a Raybestos box. It is OEM for a Dodge D and W 150 from 1979-1993. It even is OEM for many vans of the same era.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/23/22 07:18 PM

I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc.
Posted By: 69Cuda340S

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/24/22 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mopar Mitch
I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc.

Yeah the write on the wiped cam was good though....
Posted By: JF_Moparts

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/29/22 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kern Dog
That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.


Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary.

I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too.

The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/30/22 02:16 AM

I would have kept my Firm Feel chuck in place if it didn't have that crappy center slop. I didn't spend this much just to save weight.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 11/30/22 08:13 PM

Yeah this has become a problem when using aftermarket master cylinders. Mopar had the front ports feeding the rear brakes for years but the aftermarket decided that was confusing so they switched over to having the front port feed the front brakes. The master cylinders al look the same and often there is not any instructions.

My buddy at the chassis shop says he has to bench bleed each master cylinder before he knows how the car should be plumbed. It used to be easy but now it is kind of a crap shoot about how things should be installed.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete - 12/03/22 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by JF_Moparts
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.


Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary.

I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too.

The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR.



But the Walmart cashier doesn’t have that whinny annoying voice,
My Borgeson install has the loud noise some people complain about, funny thing is, it wasn’t as noticeable with my 340.
The 5.7, although much more power, is a smoother quieter motor.
I may have to lengthen or change the lines, or live with it.
© 2024 Moparts Forums