Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: RTSE4ME] #3024246
03/15/22 02:40 PM
03/15/22 02:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 43
League City, TX
B
BlueGhost Offline
member
BlueGhost  Offline
member
B

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 43
League City, TX
If you deciding between the Terminator and Sniper, you may want to look at the Terminator X stealth throttle body. It sits in a middle ground in both price and function, between the Terminator and the Sniper EFI. The ECU mounts separately like the Terminator ECU. It lacks some of the IO and advanced features of the HP/Terminator ecu, but like the HP/Terminator it can still be upgraded to multiport in the future.


1958 Plymouth Suburban
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: BlueGhost] #3024434
03/15/22 11:40 PM
03/15/22 11:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,045
MD
RTSE4ME Offline OP
top fuel
RTSE4ME  Offline OP
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,045
MD
Thanks, that looks it would work for me. For $450 more than the Sniper seems like a no brainer. The Terminator Stealth is nice but gets a bit pricey once you start adding fuel and ign upgrades.

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: RTSE4ME] #3126270
03/03/23 09:23 PM
03/03/23 09:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,045
MD
RTSE4ME Offline OP
top fuel
RTSE4ME  Offline OP
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,045
MD
I ended up getting the Terminator X stealth 4150 throttle body.Just finished installing Terminator X today.
Started instantly it was 38 degrees and idled at 900 when warmed up and seems to run well. Install was straightforward used the Holley in-tank pump easy peasy. I decided not to buy the Hypersark instead I purchased a new ignition module from FBO that eliminates the ballast.
Glad I bought it last spring it has gone up quite a bit like everything. Hopefully, will take it out in a day of 2

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: GY3] #3126290
03/03/23 10:39 PM
03/03/23 10:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline
master
Blusmbl  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted by GY3
No technical support for the true Atomics.

A friend installed one a couple of years ago on his LS turbo '70 Chevelle and it was quickly obsolete. He pulled it all off and recently installed a Holley Terminator. Crazy how much he spent on the Atomic originally just to have it not supported shortly thereafter.


This is my biggest worry with any aftermarket FI, honestly. Snipers and Terminators have been around for a reasonable amount of time, but at some point they’ll be replaced with new technology, also become obsolete and then become difficult to find parts for. It’s happened with earlier Holley systems already, and a few other FI systems.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: Blusmbl] #3126294
03/03/23 11:03 PM
03/03/23 11:03 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
Twostick  Offline
Still wishing...

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Originally Posted by Blusmbl
Originally Posted by GY3
No technical support for the true Atomics.

A friend installed one a couple of years ago on his LS turbo '70 Chevelle and it was quickly obsolete. He pulled it all off and recently installed a Holley Terminator. Crazy how much he spent on the Atomic originally just to have it not supported shortly thereafter.


This is my biggest worry with any aftermarket FI, honestly. Snipers and Terminators have been around for a reasonable amount of time, but at some point they’ll be replaced with new technology, also become obsolete and then become difficult to find parts for. It’s happened with earlier Holley systems already, and a few other FI systems.


NASCAR uses that system I believe so I think it will be supported for some time to come.

Kevin

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: Blusmbl] #3126295
03/03/23 11:04 PM
03/03/23 11:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by Blusmbl
Originally Posted by GY3
No technical support for the true Atomics.

A friend installed one a couple of years ago on his LS turbo '70 Chevelle and it was quickly obsolete. He pulled it all off and recently installed a Holley Terminator. Crazy how much he spent on the Atomic originally just to have it not supported shortly thereafter.


This is my biggest worry with any aftermarket FI, honestly. Snipers and Terminators have been around for a reasonable amount of time, but at some point they’ll be replaced with new technology, also become obsolete and then become difficult to find parts for. It’s happened with earlier Holley systems already, and a few other FI systems.


I've had a few customers get stung by the above. one was an earlier Holley TPI setup. They did offer to sell him a newer version at list price down

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: TJP] #3126388
03/04/23 10:25 AM
03/04/23 10:25 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,258
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,258
nowhere
Megasquirt or it's variants.

That's what I am putting on my 51 Plymouth. All the hard parts, except the actual throttle bodies and air cleaner, are off the shelf OEM parts. Wiring is wiring. The computer is the only unique part and it'll be been around longer than the current stuff being talked about. Way more support than them too. Open source coding, you want a unique feature? There are people that will write that for you, for a fee. Yes t will self learn too.

But you do have to know something about what you are doing.

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: Sniper] #3126400
03/04/23 11:19 AM
03/04/23 11:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
You do have to know something about what you are doing with EFI. And isn't that a real issue for most guys? We are 60 years or so in on our most popular carb platforms and most guys don't know a main jet from an air bleed. Or want to. Now along comes retrofit EFI. And it changes, but not necessarily solves the issues confronting the average car guy.

While some guys have good success with these systems, many don't. Here, in no particular order are my issues with the current crop of retrofit EFI:

EFI is much more expensive than the carbs they are trying to replace. Even if you add in the cost to have your off the shelf carb professionally tuned which would eliminate 90+% of EFI's purported advantages.

Obsolescence that makes the system useless because you can't get proprietary parts. Besides the fact that if a component fails on the road, obsolete or not, you may not be able to access it.

Today's retrofit EFI is still a wet manifold system that has all the issues of a carbureted induction system.

Today's retro EFI is as obsolete as the carbs that they seek to replace. No auto manufacturer has used them for decades. And port EFI is not feasible for the vast majority of us. And even some of them end up in batch.

EFI introduces a ton more of potential electrical issues. In fact, most of the complaints that I read about from retrofit EFI owners concerns electrical problems. And those problems can be nearly impossible to diagnose over the phone, even if minor. Especially when there is only limited tech support at best. And sometimes none at all.

And finally, a properly selected and properly tuned carburetor is easily the match for any of the self tuning EFI kits. Only when a well tuned EFI kit is compared to an out-of-the-box carb does the EFI show any improvement. And it has been proven time and again that the carb wins the horsepower wars.

Much like the EV situation, the current crop of EFI retro kits are not ready for prime time. Not really the best solution for most of us. Sure, there are guys and situations that have benefited from them. But, by and large they are not the best choice for most of us for our muscle cars.


Master, again and still
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: DaveRS23] #3126447
03/04/23 02:49 PM
03/04/23 02:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
You do have to know something about what you are doing with EFI. And isn't that a real issue for most guys? We are 60 years or so in on our most popular carb platforms and most guys don't know a main jet from an air bleed. Or want to. Now along comes retrofit EFI. And it changes, but not necessarily solves the issues confronting the average car guy.

While some guys have good success with these systems, many don't. Here, in no particular order are my issues with the current crop of retrofit EFI:

EFI is much more expensive than the carbs they are trying to replace. Even if you add in the cost to have your off the shelf carb professionally tuned which would eliminate 90+% of EFI's purported advantages.

Obsolescence that makes the system useless because you can't get proprietary parts. Besides the fact that if a component fails on the road, obsolete or not, you may not be able to access it.

Today's retrofit EFI is still a wet manifold system that has all the issues of a carbureted induction system.

Today's retro EFI is as obsolete as the carbs that they seek to replace. No auto manufacturer has used them for decades. And port EFI is not feasible for the vast majority of us. And even some of them end up in batch.

EFI introduces a ton more of potential electrical issues. In fact, most of the complaints that I read about from retrofit EFI owners concerns electrical problems. And those problems can be nearly impossible to diagnose over the phone, even if minor. Especially when there is only limited tech support at best. And sometimes none at all.

And finally, a properly selected and properly tuned carburetor is easily the match for any of the self tuning EFI kits. Only when a well tuned EFI kit is compared to an out-of-the-box carb does the EFI show any improvement. And it has been proven time and again that the carb wins the horsepower wars.

Much like the EV situation, the current crop of EFI retro kits are not ready for prime time. Not really the best solution for most of us. Sure, there are guys and situations that have benefited from them. But, by and large they are not the best choice for most of us for our muscle cars.


very well said sir bow
You did leave out one part, most installers DO NOT have the knowledge or understand the critical importance of wire termination at the terminals as well as Voltage supply and grounds.
OK, 1 more, 40 feet of rubber hose for your supply and return lines whistling GIT ER DONE quick and easy.
LOL, Don't forget the scotchlock connectors LOL .
I Suggest getting an assortment for a professional installation rolleyes

LINKY smile



Opera Snapshot_2023-03-04_124640_www.amazon.com.png
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: DaveRS23] #3126515
03/04/23 06:31 PM
03/04/23 06:31 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,258
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,258
nowhere
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
You do have to know something about what you are doing with EFI. And isn't that a real issue for most guys? We are 60 years or so in on our most popular carb platforms and most guys don't know a main jet from an air bleed. Or want to. Now along comes retrofit EFI. And it changes, but not necessarily solves the issues confronting the average car guy.

While some guys have good success with these systems, many don't. Here, in no particular order are my issues with the current crop of retrofit EFI:

EFI is much more expensive than the carbs they are trying to replace. Even if you add in the cost to have your off the shelf carb professionally tuned which would eliminate 90+% of EFI's purported advantages.



I have a spread sheet with the price I paid for every part I needed to put EFI on my 51. $1024.49. From fuel pump to air cleaners, it's a dual TBI setup all of it name brand stuff, it could have been cheaper if I ran off brand. It also includes a wide band O2 sensor, every connector and all the other sensors needed to run. When you include all the parts of a quality carb system, fuel pump to air cleaner, the costs are similar. Don't forget the wideband.

Quote
Obsolescence that makes the system useless because you can't get proprietary parts. Besides the fact that if a component fails on the road, obsolete or not, you may not be able to access it.


There is exactly one proprietary part in the whole system, the ECU. Everything else is off the shelf OEM stuff.

Quote
Today's retrofit EFI is still a wet manifold system that has all the issues of a carbureted induction system.


Only true if you are going throttle body injection, otherwise not true. A carb has those issues regardless. Not sure how this proves a point.

Quote
Today's retro EFI is as obsolete as the carbs that they seek to replace. No auto manufacturer has used them for decades. And port EFI is not feasible for the vast majority of us. And even some of them end up in batch.


Not sure what version of EFI you are claiming to be obsolete here. The setup I am using can be TBI, batch fire or sequential injection. Not sure if it can do DI, but that's a bad choice regardless.

Quote
EFI introduces a ton more of potential electrical issues. In fact, most of the complaints that I read about from retrofit EFI owners concerns electrical problems. And those problems can be nearly impossible to diagnose over the phone, even if minor. Especially when there is only limited tech support at best. And sometimes none at all.


If you are scared of electricity or ignorant of it then that's your issue not EFI's. It is only as good as the installer and as I said you do have to know what you are doing.

Quote
And finally, a properly selected and properly tuned carburetor is easily the match for any of the self tuning EFI kits. Only when a well tuned EFI kit is compared to an out-of-the-box carb does the EFI show any improvement. And it has been proven time and again that the carb wins the horsepower wars.


There are a small handful of shops that can "properly tune" a carb and they are nowhere near me. A properly tuned EFI system is a match for a properly tuned carb system, anywhere you care to look at it. But if you are only comparing an out of the box EFI system to a tuned carb system does your claim come close to holding water and only until the EFI tunes itself. None of those ships can really compensate for distribution issues a wet manifold can induce, EFI doesn't have that issue unless it is TBI.

Quote
Much like the EV situation, the current crop of EFI retro kits are not ready for prime time. Not really the best solution for most of us. Sure, there are guys and situations that have benefited from them. But, by and large they are not the best choice for most of us for our muscle cars.


You do like to conflate don't you? If your knowledge is decades out of date, so are your conclusions.

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: Sniper] #3126549
03/04/23 09:13 PM
03/04/23 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
Funny work but I thought it was you that said; "But you do have to know something about what you are doing."

Doesn't that dismiss most of us old guys with muscle cars. And most young guys with muscle cars.

Electrical knowledge is second only to carburetor knowledge as the least understood of a car's systems by most average guys. Now I understand that as exceptional as you are, that you might not understand that.

Why don't you go ahead and lay out your low cost EFI spread sheet so that those of us that aren't as exceptional as you can do it too? Now that would be cool! Besides, I would like to double check your math should some of us decide to try your very cost effective system. Not that you would try to hoodwink us or anything. whistling


Master, again and still
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: Sniper] #3126565
03/04/23 09:52 PM
03/04/23 09:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,085
Benton, IL.
Here is the latest in a whole series of long threads on this subject over on PhantomBullet. 6 pages worth from both sides of the aisle. Read them and see which one of us is closer to the real world with our opinion. Just be prepared for some strong statements. blush

Either way, it's certainly entertaining. And after all, isn't that what this is all supposed to be about? biggrin


Master, again and still
Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: DaveRS23] #3126978
03/06/23 01:54 PM
03/06/23 01:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
every time i see "scotch locks" i cringe.................
what is the rest of the wiring like ? runaway
beer

Re: Sniper vs Terminator EFI [Re: moparx] #3126983
03/06/23 02:03 PM
03/06/23 02:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,190
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,190
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by moparx
every time i see "scotch locks" i cringe.................
what is the rest of the wiring like ? runaway
beer

#m makes many different versions of high quality "Scotch Locks" used in many different industries including communications, I first ran into them in the mid 1960s working for a telephone company in SO CA, they offered a number of different types that never failed if used properly up twocents You need to know that all of our voltage and amperages were very low, 52 Volts D.C. max, except for the ringing currents, and very low milliamps.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1