Re: Predator builds
[Re: n20mstr]
#3019422
02/27/22 01:03 PM
02/27/22 01:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,599 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not?? At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time The reason are many but one big one is bore size. There is alot to that for sure. Another big one is development of that platform. It was originally developed for Texas Pro Stock 468" powerglide stuff that was BRUTALLY fast. Guys were willing to spend the money to make those the best they could be. Would that weight drop include a Predator head? Usually the non inline. non conventional stuff gets no weight breaks. Just curious. The SR20 and Dart 20 are "conventional" BBC valve layout. They get a small hit in NMCA for the non conventional valve angle. Our rules allow +- 2 degrees.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: birdtracker]
#3019423
02/27/22 01:06 PM
02/27/22 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,599 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Al Aquire had a very good running 605 that I got to run 4.65 after 2 passes and a high dollar lifter decided it didn't want to play anymore. Hardcore B you should ask him if he has that camshaft. It is a known good combo. Thats me being the crew [censored]. I honestly think it would of went a .60 or even in the .50's after a couple more passes. We were definetly going the right direction Birdtracker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfMNxHvDp0 Don that clunker actually went a best of .57. I just never really got to run it much back there, well you know the struggles for sure The car actually won a TS race in Illinois last year with its new owner. BTW building a new one right now. Its smaller and will be aimed at bracket and .90 racing. Should make ok power for a bracket piece.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3019523
02/27/22 08:20 PM
02/27/22 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,941 NC
440Jim
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This is a 460 Predator ... So what CID Predator are you going to build? Do you have a 460 port with the 4.500" or 4.560" chamber? Hemi block or wedge? This could be very cool to watch the build.
Last edited by 440Jim; 02/28/22 09:18 AM. Reason: picture of offset distributor
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3019616
02/28/22 09:08 AM
02/28/22 09:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,276 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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I don't think they would nessacarily run bad on a smaller engine than 600CID... it just might not run to it's max potential. Sort of like how I have heads that flow 340 CFM on a 410 horse 392, yes I could easily bump it up to 440 CID a couple more points of compression a huge cam and make 700 HP but it runs just fine on a lesser engine. I really don't think my engine will run any better with a 200 CFM head even though that's all you need to make 410HP. Yes, I don't plan to spend the money to run them to their potential just yet. So there is room to grow, and from what I see they have about 150HP more potential them a similarly prepped B1 build. Although your comparison is good in theory and valid to make your point, your Hemi will not make 410HP with 200cfm unless you make some more aggressive changes to the engine, which is my point/reasoning.
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: 440Jim]
#3019621
02/28/22 09:22 AM
02/28/22 09:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,276 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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This is a 460 Predator ... So what CID Predator are you going to build? Do you have a 460 port with the 4.500" chamber? Hemi block or wedge? This could be very cool to watch the build. Hey Jim, yes 460 port WEDGE. They were on a 4.500" bore. I'm planning around a 4.250 crank. This season I have plenty of irons on the fire already. The 440-1/900HP combo will go in the car and I want to see that Dizusters '62 runs well. Any progress I make on the Pred build I'll share here but, I doubt I'll be blazing a trail to model after. What could be is some type of Chinese firedrill sideshow which might be entertaining. Dartin has pledged to continue to help me and Gdemon has and will be helpful as well.
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3019632
02/28/22 09:52 AM
02/28/22 09:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,765 On the parachute mount
n20mstr
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makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not?? At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time The reason are many but one big one is bore size. There is alot to that for sure. Another big one is development of that platform. It was originally developed for Texas Pro Stock 468" powerglide stuff that was BRUTALLY fast. Guys were willing to spend the money to make those the best they could be. Would that weight drop include a Predator head? Usually the non inline. non conventional stuff gets no weight breaks. Just curious. The SR20 and Dart 20 are "conventional" BBC valve layout. They get a small hit in NMCA for the non conventional valve angle. Our rules allow +- 2 degrees. Al the Predator is NOT legal at all in Ultra or extreme
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: n20mstr]
#3019747
02/28/22 02:36 PM
02/28/22 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,599 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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Al the Predator is NOT legal at all in Ultra or extreme
Yeah that ole port layout is an issue for many sanctioning bodies. in NA we have weight tiers to fit anything that is not billet. If we were allowed billet heads the Vette would have a P5 engine in it.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3045766
05/28/22 01:36 AM
05/28/22 01:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 40 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
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On my third Predator build now, just a bracket .90 deal but it will make some steam..
Oh yeah went 4.50's with my last one. Just a lowly NA 604" Predator.
You know my feelings on building one for smaller cubes. Seems like the perfect place for them
They only build Predator heads for 4.80" bore space block. FWIW we run a B1, Predator and a 600-13(on a 4.84" block) now. Are you using the wedge or the Hemi bolt pattern heads? Pros & Cons? Thanks, Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045778
05/28/22 06:04 AM
05/28/22 06:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,658 Motor City
6PKRTSE
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All good info as I almost went Predator for my car, but decided to stick with the ole tried and true HEMI....
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: 6PKRTSE]
#3045792
05/28/22 07:26 AM
05/28/22 07:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,858 NW Indiana
fbs63
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I would find the minimum CSA and work backwards from there using PIPEMAX to find cubic inch. Probably have to turn it 9k plus in the lights but most of the All Motor engines are junior Pro Stocks anyway. How is minimum weight calculated in the class?
Last edited by fbs63; 05/28/22 07:32 AM.
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045880
05/28/22 12:16 PM
05/28/22 12:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,599 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Are you using the wedge or the Hemi bolt pattern heads? Pros & Cons?
Thanks, Tom
My current one is a Hemi pattern head. The last one was a Wedge. Supposedly the Hemi stuff flows a tad better but I have not found that to be the anymore than a nominal difference. We care more about port shape, cross section and runner CC than a flow number. At least with where the heads were ported the numbers are pretty much he same. I would think block availability is ALWAYS a consideration. Last one was a Wedge head because that was the block that was available. This one is on a KB hemi block, likely the last one from the original KB.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3045892
05/28/22 12:39 PM
05/28/22 12:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 40 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
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I guess when I asked this my main thoughts were with the head gasket clamping. I assumed the Hemi layout would offer some benefits?
Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045915
05/28/22 01:43 PM
05/28/22 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,599 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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It likely does but I have had zero issues with the Wedge stuff and head gaskets. My last deal was right at 16-1 and ths current one will be a tick over the last one. I am 99.9% sue most the blown Predator stuff is Hemi pattern for that reason. But I am an NA guy and to this point has not been an issue for me.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3045939
05/28/22 03:19 PM
05/28/22 03:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 40 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
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Did I read correctly that the Hemi pattern heads do not have access plugs that are required with the wedge heads? Thoughts if this design offers any performance advantage or just less hassle to deal with?
Thanks, Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3046411
05/30/22 10:57 AM
05/30/22 10:57 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 40 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
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I suppose I should ask about the quality or lack of in every product Indy makes with the Predator heads. What issues have you guys ran into with them?
Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3046444
05/30/22 12:28 PM
05/30/22 12:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,050 San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
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I've been reading thru the archives and there has been some good info relayed on different Predator head builds. I'd like to hear of any new updates or builds using these heads Wedge or Hemi. Any new parts available? What ever happened to the Cam F/X rocker arm programs? Who's got stuff lying around not being used? I only know of one build smaller than 550CID, anyone do a smaller CID build? Asking for a friend. May have a set of 1.9 cam FX rockers available soon ,if your interested pm me there tool steel…. Have run more than a few combos , current one is based off a KB, it’s 612” made a tic over 1300 HP…. It’s been a great fast bracket combo, good luck with your build…. Tony
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: fbs63]
#3046669
05/31/22 07:20 AM
05/31/22 07:20 AM
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HardcoreB
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I would find the minimum CSA and work backwards from there using PIPEMAX to find cubic inch. Probably have to turn it 9k plus in the lights but most of the All Motor engines are junior Pro Stocks anyway. How is minimum weight calculated in the class? 10Exactly. 2)Exactly. 3)Well, there are the rules and like anywhere else I'd guess there is a matter on how they are interpreted. My INDY S/R 485" with 2 4bbl would be about 2830lbs. Weight breaks for Mopar=-125lbs Teir2 Body=-50 Then a penalty for 2 carbs 10% of CID again about 2830lbs total with driver of course. (EDIT: 480CID is 2940 base weight)
Last edited by HardcoreB; 05/31/22 07:55 AM. Reason: added info
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Re: Predator builds
[Re: boatracer572]
#3046672
05/31/22 07:53 AM
05/31/22 07:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,276 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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I've been reading thru the archives and there has been some good info relayed on different Predator head builds. I'd like to hear of any new updates or builds using these heads Wedge or Hemi. Any new parts available? What ever happened to the Cam F/X rocker arm programs? Who's got stuff lying around not being used? I only know of one build smaller than 550CID, anyone do a smaller CID build? Asking for a friend. May have a set of 1.9 cam FX rockers available soon ,if your interested pm me there tool steel…. Have run more than a few combos , current one is based off a KB, it’s 612” made a tic over 1300 HP…. It’s been a great fast bracket combo, good luck with your build…. Tony Thanks Tony, your stuff is always top-shelf. The Predator project is idle now at least until I finish rebuilding the 485" S/R (nearly done) WHILE THE KB Block -1 Head motor is going together I will see what shared parts may be integrated into that upgrade. (Low-deck KB block, lifters, oil system, cam drive and ignition???) The block has .937 lifter bores but, spreading them and going to a keyway might be a good idea for 9000+. I do have a RELIABLE valvetrain package based around a 1.8 rocker and current lifter placement BUT, want to make worthwhile power too. Also, it's looking like a custom single 4bbl intake would be the best way to go on this.
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