Predator builds

I've been reading thru the archives and there has been some good info relayed on different Predator head builds. I'd like to hear of any new updates or builds using these heads Wedge or Hemi. Any new parts available? What ever happened to the Cam F/X rocker arm programs? Who's got stuff lying around not being used? I only know of one build smaller than 550CID, anyone do a smaller CID build? Asking for a friend.

Following.
Of note I don't think you can get Predator heads for a 4.840 B/S anymore (at least for a wedge block) ???

Ran 4.80 in the 1/8 with a 572 B1 engine with a Pro charger #4 PSI like to build a predator engine for sure

I talked to Ken at Indy about a smaller cubic inch build not too long ago (528"). He said with the "as cast" head, you could probably get away with it. He told me they had experimented in the past with a smaller inch Predator, and found they had to turn it high rpm to make power. He said you could do it, but the engine would require a lot of valve spring maintenance.

There is/was a member here that had a 480-ish" Predator build, but I think they were running nitrous on it.

On my third Predator build now, just a bracket .90 deal but it will make some steam..

Oh yeah went 4.50's with my last one. Just a lowly NA 604" Predator.

You know my feelings on building one for smaller cubes. Seems like the perfect place for them

They only build Predator heads for 4.80" bore space block. FWIW we run a B1, Predator and a 600-13(on a 4.84" block) now.

It would be cool if they made a 5" bore space deal

I have been around 3 Predator motors. If you just want it to go to the car show, a small inch motor will be fine. If you want to run with the big dogs 605 would be my small and 655 would be ideal. 1400 hp is the norm with 2 carbs and no power adders. If you wanted to run a procharger I believe low 4 second passes and even high 3.90s are there.But that is big dollar block, rods, crank, transmisson, convertor, and especially the car.We are talking pro stock chassis with fire system.Good luck on your "friends" build. Birdtracker

I seem to remember DTHemi built a few.

Zero reason a smaller cube predator cannot work. I would think they would actually shine in such an application for oh lets say a smaller big block heads up style deal..

I do appreciate everyone's input but, I have to agree that I think a 540ish CID will work just fine if done smart. I feel the biggest gain you get with CID is the ease to make static compression. Once geometry is correct selecting a happy cam profile will help things live. Although I haven't measured them yet, the MCS on the big '460' Predator in relation to a 540 doesn't look off the charts. Growing 540 to '600' has less effect than growing a 440 to 500 although it's 60 CID either way.

Paging: DTHemi lol I haven't measured the exh port area yet but, based on Al's feedback I may start the primaries at 2.125

So I layed these two side by side because a picture says 1000 words. While I had them out I did a quick gage of the L W and radius of each at the port opening so I could calculate the cross-section. This is a 460 Predator beside a 440-1 Indy cnc'd by Modern. At the opening the MW has a larger area! 3.36" versus 3.16" Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story.

I also measured the exhaust port, which is nearly round. It is slightly smaller than 2.125" After looking at the trajectory and it has me wondering if the exhaust port is almost too good for the intake. That could make camshaft profile selection a little unconventional. But, I'm just throwing this out there and am open to feedback.

Look at the different routes the air takes, much straighter shot to the valve for the Predators. I need some

Predators were considered for my new build, however they are not legal for Ultra Street.

There is a reason that as most are ported make for very good power adder pieces

makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not??
At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time

Can you share the quick dimensions?
I had a pair of Indy 440-1 CNC 345 (Indy's CNC porting), and for comparison they were:
Intake_ Width Height Area
Opening 1.375 2.650 3.644

Exhaust Width Height Area
Opening 1.960 1.550 3.038

The area calcs don't account for the corner radius, just LxW

MW 2.68x1.38 R .625"
Pred 2.46x1.95 R 1.38"

Along with everything you have done to get some help with the rules, don't forget to SANDBAG. And if all that fails, it seems like some have had good luck using adolescent behavior to get what they want. In NMCA NA the sr20 is legal and is used and one is near the front of the pack.

I AGREE!

When I saw the pic of the Indy vs Predator heads side by side, the first thought that came to mind was: That's a good comparison between 1980 and 2000 cylinder head technology.

Then I remembered this is a Mopar site and had to correct my thought: That's a good comparison between 1990 and 2010 cylinder head technology.

Trying to discuss rules with NMCA is an exercise in futility. Tell me again why a 4150 billet carb body of correct dimension isn't legal in an Index class? According to them "it has a distinct advantage over a casting" In fact its the ONLY part made from billet that is illegal in the class. However Methanol is legal. I shake my head.
Doug

Yes agree, noone is discounting that it's 'old' technology. DRCE was designed before that but it's still going strong. It's basically about all I'm willing to afford and if it breaks, well let's not wish that on me. I just plan on having fun and if I'm lucky, I'll go a round. And a few of these guys I am friends with anyway. If you read my old stuff when i first got this jalopy going there was a concern I'd not feel comfortable at speed but, after the first hit I felt like i wanted some more. This has so far all come together since that time pretty smooth.

Yeah some of us rallied for you. It is disappointing and I've aired my reasoning, mainly being every part of your car LOOKS more era correct than about 90% of what's in your class.

Kidding around about "old tech" simply because that's what ya' hear about the Mopar world anyway. He11, I've built my last two combinations using two out of three of what seem to be the most hated BBM heads around, MP Stage VIs and Edelbrock Victors. If I ever try a set of Bulldogs, I could probably claim the trifecta. (Hot chocolate, actually, cuz it's cold outside)

No offense, i know what you meant and the way I think, performance is relative to the parts used and I respect/appreciate peoples refinements and their abilities to get above average results.

If you want to go fast get a HEMI !

Do YOU want to race a wedge

I don't think they would nessacarily run bad on a smaller engine than 600CID... it just might not run to it's max potential. Sort of like how I have heads that flow 340 CFM on a 410 horse 392, yes I could easily bump it up to 440 CID a couple more points of compression a huge cam and make 700 HP but it runs just fine on a lesser engine. I really don't think my engine will run any better with a 200 CFM head even though that's all you need to make 410HP.

Al Aquire had a very good running 605 that I got to run 4.65 after 2 passes and a high dollar lifter decided it didn't want to play anymore. Hardcore B you should ask him if he has that camshaft. It is a known good combo. Thats me being the crew [censored]. I honestly think it would of went a .60 or even in the .50's after a couple more passes. We were definetly going the right direction Birdtracker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfMNxHvDp0

Adding to that thought:

Hey Bird! That's neat you got to help Al! I think he said Muncie was one of his favorite tracks? Thanks for the video link too, I opened it and saw there were quite a few more racing videos and before you know it, I had forgotten why I was there. lol If my stuff runs good it is not because it's just me, I recognize it is an accumulation of inputs from so many people in this community. Al has been right there helping steer me.

So, this morning I thought the cross-section calc's were off and I'm redoing those and about to log-in so i can enter my error and I see 440Jim sent me a pm telling me the calc's are off. Honestly what a gentleman, I appreciate that you didn't point out my error publicly lol. But, I really don't mind if anyone points out a mistake constructively. With that said the Pred IS BIGGER than the MW 440-1 duh. I'll post better numbers when i have more confidence in my area chart inputs. Anyone that gets the chance, launch that link video Birdtracker posted for Alguires Predator Avenger. Car run goo

Hardcore B : that pass was a 1.00 with a 1 sixty foot. I was actually going for a .999 sixty foot. Like I said that car was making some steam, Al will tell you its an old nitrous cam but it worked N/A. Muncie is a really good track and I can say I have been a regular there since 1985. Its not Norwalk but its a really good small track. Birdtracker

HardcoreB, do a good build thread (update as you go) once you get the ball rolling.

Lots of good info here and I’m sure more to come. I agree with John, good build thread would be very interesting.

Randy

I made some simplifications/assumptions, but this is my approximation of the Predator intake opening cross-section.
I could be wrong.... But if somebody else calculates something close, I will go with it.

For comparison, my B1 original heads were ported by somebody to 2.74 x 1.755 with maybe 0.50 radius corners.
And I came up with 4.59 sqin. A standard Koffel's gasket is 2.66 x 1.60 or about 4.04 sqin accounting for corners.

Jim : thats some good math. I should of bought that engine off Al but I knew my 2 car garage chassis would not of held up to that much hp. It was a good combo. Birdtracker

The reason are many but one big one is bore size. There is alot to that for sure. Another big one is development of that platform. It was originally developed for Texas Pro Stock 468" powerglide stuff that was BRUTALLY fast. Guys were willing to spend the money to make those the best they could be.

Would that weight drop include a Predator head? Usually the non inline. non conventional stuff gets no weight breaks. Just curious. The SR20 and Dart 20 are "conventional" BBC valve layout. They get a small hit in NMCA for the non conventional valve angle. Our rules allow +- 2 degrees.

Don that clunker actually went a best of .57. I just never really got to run it much back there, well you know the struggles for sure The car actually won a TS race in Illinois last year with its new owner.

BTW building a new one right now. Its smaller and will be aimed at bracket and .90 racing. Should make ok power for a bracket piece.

Al: CLUNKER lol. If the racepak would of been collecting data , we was in for a very memorable night. Birdtracker

So what CID Predator are you going to build? Do you have a 460 port with the 4.500" or 4.560" chamber?
Hemi block or wedge?
This could be very cool to watch the build.

Yes, I don't plan to spend the money to run them to their potential just yet. So there is room to grow, and from what I see they have about 150HP more potential them a similarly prepped B1 build. Although your comparison is good in theory and valid to make your point, your Hemi will not make 410HP with 200cfm unless you make some more aggressive changes to the engine, which is my point/reasoning.

Hey Jim, yes 460 port WEDGE. They were on a 4.500" bore. I'm planning around a 4.250 crank. This season I have plenty of irons on the fire already. The 440-1/900HP combo will go in the car and I want to see that Dizusters '62 runs well. Any progress I make on the Pred build I'll share here but, I doubt I'll be blazing a trail to model after. What could be is some type of Chinese firedrill sideshow which might be entertaining. Dartin has pledged to continue to help me and Gdemon has and will be helpful as well.

Al the Predator is NOT legal at all in Ultra or extreme

Yeah that ole port layout is an issue for many sanctioning bodies. in NA we have weight tiers to fit anything that is not billet. If we were allowed billet heads the Vette would have a P5 engine in it.

Are you using the wedge or the Hemi bolt pattern heads? Pros & Cons?

Thanks,
Tom

All good info as I almost went Predator for my car, but decided to stick with the ole tried and true HEMI....

I would find the minimum CSA and work backwards from there using PIPEMAX to find cubic inch. Probably have to turn it 9k plus in the lights but most of the All Motor engines are junior Pro Stocks anyway. How is minimum weight calculated in the class?

My current one is a Hemi pattern head. The last one was a Wedge. Supposedly the Hemi stuff flows a tad better but I have not found that to be the anymore than a nominal difference. We care more about port shape, cross section and runner CC than a flow number. At least with where the heads were ported the numbers are pretty much he same. I would think block availability is ALWAYS a consideration. Last one was a Wedge head because that was the block that was available. This one is on a KB hemi block, likely the last one from the original KB.

I guess when I asked this my main thoughts were with the head gasket clamping. I assumed the Hemi layout would offer some benefits?

Tom

It likely does but I have had zero issues with the Wedge stuff and head gaskets. My last deal was right at 16-1 and ths current one will be a tick over the last one. I am 99.9% sue most the blown Predator stuff is Hemi pattern for that reason. But I am an NA guy and to this point has not been an issue for me.

Did I read correctly that the Hemi pattern heads do not have access plugs that are required with the wedge heads? Thoughts if this design offers any performance advantage or just less hassle to deal with?

Thanks,
Tom

I suppose I should ask about the quality or lack of in every product Indy makes with the Predator heads. What issues have you guys ran into with them?

Tom

May have a set of 1.9 cam FX rockers available soon ,if your interested pm me there tool steel…. Have run more than a few combos , current one is based off a KB, it’s 612” made a tic over 1300 HP…. It’s been a great fast bracket combo, good luck with your build….
Tony

Boat pic

10Exactly. 2)Exactly. 3)Well, there are the rules and like anywhere else I'd guess there is a matter on how they are interpreted. My INDY S/R 485" with 2 4bbl would be about 2830lbs. Weight breaks for Mopar=-125lbs Teir2 Body=-50 Then a penalty for 2 carbs 10% of CID again about 2830lbs total with driver of course. (EDIT: 480CID is 2940 base weight)

Thanks Tony, your stuff is always top-shelf. The Predator project is idle now at least until I finish rebuilding the 485" S/R (nearly done) WHILE THE KB Block -1 Head motor is going together I will see what shared parts may be integrated into that upgrade. (Low-deck KB block, lifters, oil system, cam drive and ignition???) The block has .937 lifter bores but, spreading them and going to a keyway might be a good idea for 9000+. I do have a RELIABLE valvetrain package based around a 1.8 rocker and current lifter placement BUT, want to make worthwhile power too. Also, it's looking like a custom single 4bbl intake would be the best way to go on this.

My kb has 2.0” lifter bore spred and a 1.062” Jesel keyway lifter… speeding the lifters that much makes it possible to run a 5/8” pushrod and straightens the pushrods a ton, but cam cores (55mm ) are hard to get…

Have you tried getting a cam from LSM?

Tom

Go to a 60MM and cams are much easier to come by. Same core as used in TF and Blown Alky stuff. I have had no issues with getting cams FWIW

Not directly in a while.... Im sure there like every one else.... long waits!!

Thinking about buying a Callies/ Energy Hemi block. Anyone using one with their Predator headed engine?

Tom

I am now seriously looking at these again...Broke somthing in the valve train in the big Hemi, probably another intake spring, and I want somthing I can do Drag Week with and still run low 9's or high 8's.......

It would run low 8’s or high 7’s. Birdtracker

My family has been keeping me busy this past year so, I don't have any updates to add to my program on the Predator front. I doubt over the winter I'll be converting the CAR over to this build because it'll really want a 3 speed and a 25.5 upgrade. The block SHOULD get big keyway lifters. So, offset machine the lifter bores and while it's there may as well go 60mm cam core. As said earlier it'll need to be 9,000+RPM but that's the playfield. The budget is there currently but it's just the time it'll take to execute this will leave me down. I really just need to go up and down the track with my new 900+HP combo and learn. That will push the current chassis cert anyway.

Over rated we should all be looking at TF270's instead

Since you spoke up.....What do you like better, Predator, Hemi 99, or? Which one is more maintenance?

Well one will make peak 8000-8500 built all out and the other 10,000+ in maxed out form. A generalization but hope it makes for a clearer picture. Also 99/06 stuff is getting harder and harder to come by, they also are VERY short deck height blocks, think smalblock Ford short. And no one makes a block to accommodate the head. So 550ish cubes is the limit. Not really a matter of liking one better they are IMO focused on two different types of racing. Both canmake power. The 99 can make more naturally aspirated at the cost of RPM...The other can be done from bracket NA to power adder stuff and they see to work well. The Wheatcrafts have a few centrifugal Predators making right at 2000hp at low boost levels.

One of the things I have learned so far in this very informative thread is that a 60mm cam core is preferable when building one of these beasts.
Having no experience myself, can you also do a +.250" raised cam along with the 60mm cam?
If so, how large of a stroke would be practical to run?

I'm thinking a big cube, reliable, bracket / Dragweek type deal.

Based on the pad in the block the cam gets machined into, I would think the raised cam is almost required to have the tunnel bored out to 60mm, just looking at my Callies block, there would not be a lot of material on the bottom if you machined a block with the cam in the standard location....I could be wrong, but seems like it would be thin.

Checking on Indy's site, their 1350HP Predator combo uses a 55mm raised cam with aluminum rods and a 5" stroke.

So a 60mm cam with a 5" stroke seems doable, especially with steel rods. With a 4.5" bore that comes out to 636 cid, a fun little grocery getter.

Interesting...

So raised cam, 55mm bore, what else is needed for the hemi block? I saw some with keyway lifters & bronze guides, but also don't they move the lifter bores for a Predator build, or can you run stock location? I have a Hemi block here, but standard cam bore and height.

Well for me its raised cam 60MM cam. Lifter bores can be stock but the pushrod is not the straightest and clearance for a proper sized pushrod for something like you would build is tight. Also tie bar lifters make getting a bigger pushrod very tough. But it can be and has been done. Ideally you woudl want to spread the lifters out to straighten the pushrod and do with a keyway style lifter. While you are there you can move the lifter diameter to .937" or 1.062", which also gains a larger diameter roller wheel. You can do 655" with a 5" crank or another option is a 645" which is a smaller bore of only 4.530" which will leave some room for later. FWIW my current build is a 596" for brackets.

So I was talking with Deanna at Indy the other day, and they are testing a new X block which is the newest version of the Maxx block on their Predator builds....Most seem to be water cooling the heads only, but the latest version has full cooling....Rated to 3000hp.

There you go, get started on building that Drag Week motor!!

My latest one is getting closer. Closer than this picture makes it seem. Waiting on Isky to make the "custom" lifters for me as we are trying something new for a Predator for me anyway. So we can order pushrods and make sure we have clearance issues all resolved for them. My 655 is also getting close to going back together.

Here is a pic thats a bit old now but for those who have not seen the stuff.

That's Nice stuff.

I just got some ole -1s

Beautiful!! What is the combo?

I aint got one of them spinny things though

KB Hemi block and Predator heads, Bryant crank, Jesel belt, blah blah blah. 596" single 4 for brackets and mainly .90 racing. Should be 1130ish or so.


Also freshening our 600-13(smaller version not the X or 3X) 655" deal. Should both make similar power numbers. Be interesting to see how they fair as the combos are pretty close to each other in terms of cam numbers and compression carb and both being bracket pieces. But one with a "spread port" type head and the other with a typical BBM type head albeit with a much larger intake valve and cross section. One is 69" bigger as well. We know what the 655 made before and this time it should be a bit better with not so much piston to wall and more compression. Hope to dyno them back to back and Ill share more later when they are both done. Should be an interesting comparison.

I kinda jumped the shark on that already....There was a set of those heads on here complete for $6500 and if I can find them, and if the owner might be interested in some trading parts and cash, that becomes a possibility....So I did put a post in the want ads...

In the meantime, I am working on a fix for my issue on the Hemiroid, and the new cam showed up I will post updates after the weekend. ....Meanwhile, I am nose deep in this thread.

Make sure if you are chasing used Predator parts you get the post NRC stuff, the pieces that Indy now casts after Steve Gill updated the entire casting......

So... does Indy still make these heads? Can't tell by their website it's straight out of the 90s...

Yes.

I wanted to do Predator build initially. Decided I wanted to keep it more streetable for now and went HEMI.

FWIW they just updated their website. Not sute its better but it is new. At least you can search now.

https://www.indyheads.com/product/h-beryl-seats/

There was a shop tour video on 'Youtu' around the time the Wheatcrafts bought Indy and I think I counted 7 or more pairs of raw new castings. Like Al said the later versions have casting improvements which may or may not be necessary for some milder builds IDK. Scott Brown is in partner with some guys which have a 'big' port cnc program for them FWIW.

Had my hands on an old predator headed engine that Chris Rini used to run, made by Muscle motors. Took the heads to a flow bench and they really weren't very spectacular. Sure, they were old,maybe million valve jobs etc. But still raised some thoughts. The exhaust was decent.