Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: CSK]
#3013559
02/08/22 10:54 PM
02/08/22 10:54 PM
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Brad_Haak
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2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3013657
02/09/22 10:58 AM
02/09/22 10:58 AM
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440Jim
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We made a few pulls today. It made 870 power at 6800 and 760 torque at 5400. Found a few items to work on. Not sure if we'll put it back on the dyno or just make the changes and put it in the car. Depends on what the owner wants to do. No doubt in my mind that it would easily make 900 hp with some minor changes. Just putting larger dia headers on it should make more peak HP. About how long are those 2" dyno headers? maybe 34" ??? I don't have a good feel for the torque peak RPM, so it is nice to know 5400. I could only guess 5500-5700. Do you think that is mostly a Super Victor intake function, and a Indy 440-3X would push the peak higher?
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3013665
02/09/22 11:15 AM
02/09/22 11:15 AM
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440Jim
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Short video of the rocker arm oiling. This is at a fast idle. Quite a bit of oil gets slung around even at 1500 rpm. At higher speeds the window is covered in oil and you can't see anything. Does the Indy block have bronze bushings or a wide open channel to feed oil to the lifters? Any restrictor to the lifter oil passage? What pushrod oiling lifters is the customer using?
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: 440Jim]
#3013687
02/09/22 12:09 PM
02/09/22 12:09 PM
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AndyF
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Short video of the rocker arm oiling. This is at a fast idle. Quite a bit of oil gets slung around even at 1500 rpm. At higher speeds the window is covered in oil and you can't see anything. Does the Indy block have bronze bushings or a wide open channel to feed oil to the lifters? Any restrictor to the lifter oil passage? What pushrod oiling lifters is the customer using? Best installed lifter bushings and the engine has Crower lifters. I assume there is a small hole drilled in the bushing but the engine was purchased as a long block so I don't have any pictures of the internals.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: 440Jim]
#3013688
02/09/22 12:11 PM
02/09/22 12:11 PM
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AndyF
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We made a few pulls today. It made 870 power at 6800 and 760 torque at 5400. Found a few items to work on. Not sure if we'll put it back on the dyno or just make the changes and put it in the car. Depends on what the owner wants to do. No doubt in my mind that it would easily make 900 hp with some minor changes. Just putting larger dia headers on it should make more peak HP. About how long are those 2" dyno headers? maybe 34" ??? I don't have a good feel for the torque peak RPM, so it is nice to know 5400. I could only guess 5500-5700. Do you think that is mostly a Super Victor intake function, and a Indy 440-3X would push the peak higher? I think the 2 inch headers are 32 inches long. I had Stahl build them for me 20+ years ago. I've used them on 900+ hp engines before but the engines were smaller. If I was trying to wring everything out of this 572 then I'd have a larger set of headers built. PipeMax recommends 2.25/2.375 step headers with a 4 inch collector.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3013731
02/09/22 02:35 PM
02/09/22 02:35 PM
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gregsdart
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We made a few pulls today. It made 870 power at 6800 and 760 torque at 5400. Found a few items to work on. Not sure if we'll put it back on the dyno or just make the changes and put it in the car. Depends on what the owner wants to do. No doubt in my mind that it would easily make 900 hp with some minor changes. Just putting larger dia headers on it should make more peak HP. About how long are those 2" dyno headers? maybe 34" ??? I don't have a good feel for the torque peak RPM, so it is nice to know 5400. I could only guess 5500-5700. Do you think that is mostly a Super Victor intake function, and a Indy 440-3X would push the peak higher? I think the 2 inch headers are 32 inches long. I had Stahl build them for me 20+ years ago. I've used them on 900+ hp engines before but the engines were smaller. If I was trying to wring everything out of this 572 then I'd have a larger set of headers built. PipeMax recommends 2.25/2.375 step headers with a 4 inch collector. Andy, i am surprised pipemax came up with 2 1/4 to 2 3/8 tubes. Pipemax gave me 2 1/8. To 2 1/4 for a 550 cube 1050 hp build. The 550 with 440-1 heads made 926 hp with 2 1/4 dyno headers and only lost 7 or 8 hp using my chassis 2 1/8 headers.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3013734
02/09/22 02:42 PM
02/09/22 02:42 PM
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Al_Alguire
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PipeMax recommends 2.25/2.375 step headers with a 4 inch collector. Here is my story on headers, and it has been repeated numerous times. My son had a set of 2 1/4 to 2 3/8" stainless tubes for his dragster with a 4.5" merge collector with a 4" choke, he loves his bling so even though I told him they were to big he wanted stanless. I have told home for a year they are to big. Finally after a year and change he put the 21/8" to 2 1/4" with a 4" merge 3.5" choke on the dragster. It instantly picked up 6 hundredths and with jetting ended up .08 faster than the larger header. Also picked up 3 mph. Car has been mid 4.53 at 153 with the smaller header, I'll let you all decide what it makes for power but it weighs 1920 and these runs were of course in Vegas. Best ever with the big headers was 4.61 150. Needless to say he is now building a new stainless set to match the smaller header. From my experience most Mopar guys seem to LOVE headers that are to big! My Stratus had headers that started at 2 1/8" to 2 1/4" to 2 3/8"had a 4 1/2" merge with a 4" choke(too big) and it was 1200hp
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3013736
02/09/22 02:52 PM
02/09/22 02:52 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Andy, how high did you take it, and what was the power at the end of the pull?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3013742
02/09/22 03:01 PM
02/09/22 03:01 PM
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n20mstr
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PipeMax recommends 2.25/2.375 step headers with a 4 inch collector. Here is my story on headers, and it has been repeated numerous times. My son had a set of 2 1/4 to 2 3/8" stainless tubes for his dragster with a 4.5" merge collector with a 4" choke, he loves his bling so even though I told him they were to big he wanted stanless. I have told home for a year they are to big. Finally after a year and change he put the 21/8" to 2 1/4" with a 4" merge 3.5" choke on the dragster. It instantly picked up 6 hundredths and with jetting ended up .08 faster than the larger header. Also picked up 3 mph. Car has been mid 4.53 at 153 with the smaller header, I'll let you all decide what it makes for power but it weighs 1920 and these runs were of course in Vegas. Best ever with the big headers was 4.61 150. Needless to say he is now building a new stainless set to match the smaller header. From my experience most Mopar guys seem to LOVE headers that are to big! My Stratus had headers that started at 2 1/8" to 2 1/4" to 2 3/8"had a 4 1/2" merge with a 4" choke(too big) and it was 1200hp DONT want to Hi Jak this....but ive been told my 2 1/8 to 2/1/4 headers were too small, and way too long at 32 to some 40" tubes. Now im told to build a set . the "new" headers are going to be 2 1/4 to 2 3/8 and with a 4.5 collector....and no longer than 26" AL you know what im building now. My current 530" i was told i was leaving at least 30hp or more on the table between the headers and the B1 intake/spacers.
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3013751
02/09/22 03:10 PM
02/09/22 03:10 PM
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AndyF
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Andy, how high did you take it, and what was the power at the end of the pull? We pulled 4500 to 7000 rpm. The power curve was still flat at the end of the pull. The power numbers on this pull starting at 6500 rpm are 855,854,859,861,856 and then 860 at 7000. So dead flat for the last 500 rpm. Should pull down the track pretty well in high gear.
Last edited by AndyF; 02/09/22 03:13 PM.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: n20mstr]
#3013754
02/09/22 03:13 PM
02/09/22 03:13 PM
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Al_Alguire
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In the case of a nitrous or blower deal I believe bigger is better. FWIW it of course is all combo dependent for sure but in your case I would likely look at the larger tubing size. Also high RPM stuff seems to like a bit more header provided its not a very small cube deal. We went from an 1 7/8" to 2" header on the Vette a few years ago to a 2 1/8 2 /14 2 3/8" deal on the Vette and found 28HP. In that world thats huge but we knew we had grown well past the small tubes. We have pipemax as well, but couple that with our experiences to make a final decisionon tubing size. BTW the large tube headers that were on our dragster were from when the engine was a nitrous piece trying to run TD.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3014004
02/10/22 12:20 PM
02/10/22 12:20 PM
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fast68plymouth
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The top end of the curve looks good. I’m sure the split is helping with that.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3014041
02/10/22 02:27 PM
02/10/22 02:27 PM
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AndyF
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The top end of the curve looks good. I’m sure the split is helping with that. Yeah, that could be the benefit of having so much split. If it was my engine I'd try a cam in there that I think would be good and then I'd know. I have a feeling that the cam specs I think are good might not make as much power as the cam that is in there. But that is how you learn. I'm converting it over to a crank trigger now since the distributor had some spark scatter. The owner is waiting for a new Reid case Powerglide so no rush on getting the engine into the car. While I have it in my shop I'm going to tidy up a couple of things. I never liked the way the dry sump pump was mounted so I'll build a new bracket for it and clean up some of the plumbing.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3014088
02/10/22 05:00 PM
02/10/22 05:00 PM
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I'm surprised that those heads can make 900HP but then...I've never seen them. What do you feel needed changed to realize 900HP? Either way sounds like a good engine. My 514 engine had EZ heads on it and it made over 900 hp several times. Here is a super long thread on that engine if you want to look it up: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/804381/14.htmlChuck said I should've tried more ignition timing so that is one thing. I also had the AFR at 12.8 which is safe. We could've leaned it out a bit. We were using C12 which is a decent fuel but there are other fuels which can pick up power. Bigger headers would probably make more power. PipeMax says the valve lift need to be higher. Right now the intake is choked because of the low lift. We didn't want to go with Jesel rocker arms on these heads so we are limited by the shaft rocker in what you can do. I'm sure there is more power in the valve train but not easy to get to in this configuration. Switching to Jesel rocker arms on my old 514 was key in picking up a bunch of power. Also, if this was my engine I'd switch over to a belt drive distributor. The belt drive distributor is more stable which means you can safely creep up to the limit with the timing. My 514 started out as a 750 hp engine but after a 100 dyno pulls we had it over 900 hp. Same basic long block combo, just changed the cam a bunch of times, ported the intake, switched to Jesel stuff, etc.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#3014101
02/10/22 05:29 PM
02/10/22 05:29 PM
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fast68plymouth
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My feeling on the affect of the big split is....... I feel like you’d have to turn the motor even higher to really see the influence of it...... sompared to something similar but with less split.
The thing I’d be curious about in that scenario was whether or not the big split cost any power within the “useable range”...... compared to less split.
That stuff rarely gets tested for typical bracket race combos. Usually you’re looking for a number, and as long as the results are pretty close....... it’s “good to go”.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3014104
02/10/22 05:35 PM
02/10/22 05:35 PM
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440Jim
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I'm surprised that those heads can make 900HP but then...I've never seen them. What do you feel needed changed to realize 900HP? Either way sounds like a good engine. With the work done to the heads, they are basically improved 440-1 with the lower EZ exhaust port. So with 572 CID, 14.5 CR, lots of duration, Wilson intake, I can see the 900HP. Not EZs right from Indy... My old 540 with 440-1 CNC 345 heads was a copy of a 875HP motor and was only 13 CR. heads were reworked to match this shortblock. Chambers opened up for the 4.50 bore size, 2.25 valves, etc.
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3014107
02/10/22 05:42 PM
02/10/22 05:42 PM
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440Jim
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My feeling on the affect of the big split is....... I feel like you’d have to turn the motor even higher to really see the influence of it...... sompared to something similar but with less split.
The thing I’d be curious about in that scenario was whether or not the big split cost any power within the “useable range”...... compared to less split.
That stuff rarely gets tested for typical bracket race combos. Usually you’re looking for a number, and as long as the results are pretty close....... it’s “good to go”. Dwayne, Do you think the 5400 rpm torque peak RPM is mostly a Super Victor intake function, and a Indy 440-3X would push the peak higher with 572 CID?
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Re: 572 all aluminum headed to dyno
[Re: 440Jim]
#3014131
02/10/22 07:21 PM
02/10/22 07:21 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Jim, I have never used a SV for a BBM, so I really can’t answer that.
However, a 572 I built that used 572-13 365 heads and the 3x intake made peak tq at 5600. That manifold was just port matched to the heads. Those heads have ports with a larger cross section and bigger valves than some EZ325’s, so I have to believe at least some of the higher peak tq rpm is attributed to that.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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