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dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? #3009337
01/26/22 06:35 PM
01/26/22 06:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927
Seaford, Va
Kindafast Offline OP
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Kindafast  Offline OP
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Seaford, Va
Hey guys , I plan on trying to make some rounds this year and have been battling the dragging starter once up to temp for a long time. If I am going to run back to back what would you suggest ? I have a small mini starter that works fine plus heavy gauge rear battery wiring and a huge Mercedes battery with 1000 cold cranking amps . The car still hates to start once its warm. My question is should I go dual heavy batteries or go with the expensive 16 Volt battery , alternator and new charger ? I hate both options but how about your opinions before I do it.


6.50 @105.26
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009368
01/26/22 07:41 PM
01/26/22 07:41 PM
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Posts: 8,875
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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I've used both. One 16 volt has way better cranking power than two 12 volt. 15-1 572 spins with full timing and ignition on hot or cold. Standard Dakota style starter. Mine is an XS with a 30 amp power supply to charge it. When using the two 12 volt, I had a jump box with me that plugged in under the dash. No more. The power and ground are 0 gauge. Bought a 16 volt regulator that fit my alternator.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 01/26/22 07:44 PM.
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009369
01/26/22 07:43 PM
01/26/22 07:43 PM
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Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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Good wiring and good grounds/ connections. Ultra important
Good 12 v battery and a quality 1 wire alternator. Since rewiring car two years ago i have never charged the battery during race season. Even going rounds and running electric water pump and fans between rounds. I use the 95 amp mopar style powermaster 1 wire.
Car has 12.4 compression. Always starts right up like its 16 volts.

Last edited by B3422W5; 01/26/22 07:44 PM.

69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3350 race weight
418 eddie headed stroker
Best so far, 10.77@122.62.. 1.44 60 ft
6.780@101 in 1/8

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: B3422W5] #3009386
01/26/22 08:20 PM
01/26/22 08:20 PM
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bobs69 Offline
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We run a single 16 volt battery. On alcohol so we don’t run fan and pump in the pits. We make a lot of rounds sometimes running two classes. No alternator only charging between rounds no problems at all. Love the 16 volt.

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009437
01/26/22 10:15 PM
01/26/22 10:15 PM
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Posts: 39,049
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I run two group 24 marine RV batteries Costco brand and a 100 amp one wire alternator, no issues starting my S/P 508 C.I. 15.2 to 1 E 85 motor up
high amp draw electric water pump, BG 400 electric fuel pump, fan, MSD7AL and so on.
I will charge them every now and then during the winter for several days at 3 amps and sometimes between races if I haven't race the car in the last 2 or 3 months just to make sure they are top off scope
They are around 6 years old so I may end up replacing them soon if they don't read at least 12.5+ volts after sitting for several months. They will read 12.65 after charging and sitting several days after using the car the last time I check them up
I have a voltmeter in the car that shows the battery voltage any time the ignition is on, it will read 12. 3 + volts not running and 14+ volts when running with everything turned on and running up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/26/22 10:15 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009441
01/26/22 10:29 PM
01/26/22 10:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,134
OHIO THE HEART OF IT ALL
64hemi330sedan Offline
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OHIO THE HEART OF IT ALL
i switched over to a single 16 volt from two 12 volts. should have done it sooner. my car starts easier and the charge last longer i dont run a alternator. i have an xs battery and charger.

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: 64hemi330sedan] #3009443
01/26/22 10:37 PM
01/26/22 10:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,396
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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I think you have another problem. 1000CCA battery should start anything.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: 64hemi330sedan] #3009449
01/26/22 11:21 PM
01/26/22 11:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,444
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
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Study up on lithium batteries if you would consider putting everything under the hood. I ordered a 60 ah lithium cranking battery, and it is compatable with a Denso 60 amp alternater i have. At 16.5 lbs it reduces weight by at least 20 lbs, then add what ever you save by having the battery up front. A 60 ah li battery has a flatter voltage curve, so it delivers as long as a 100ah regular battery. It is also compatable with the Denso 60 amp alternater. So it looks like a great fit. The important thing is knowing the max rpm of the alternater and getting pulleys to drive the alternater at max rpm but not over. Also, setting up the charging wiring for near zero resistance is important. As for the voltage regulater wire i just looped it over to the out put terminal of the alternater. As long as you don't have huge draws on your battery, you will never need to charge it, just maintain it between races.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Bad340fish] #3009464
01/27/22 12:29 AM
01/27/22 12:29 AM
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Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
I think you have another problem. 1000CCA battery should start anything.



Exactly. I suspect he has ground/ wiring issue


69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3350 race weight
418 eddie headed stroker
Best so far, 10.77@122.62.. 1.44 60 ft
6.780@101 in 1/8

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: B3422W5] #3009498
01/27/22 08:01 AM
01/27/22 08:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927
Seaford, Va
Kindafast Offline OP
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Kindafast  Offline OP
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Seaford, Va
Originally Posted by B3422W5
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
I think you have another problem. 1000CCA battery should start anything.



Exactly. I suspect he has ground/ wiring issue



Thanks for the advice and the opinions. I have chased this issue for years and it has heavy gauge wiring front to back , great connections, and great grounds. I have changed the starter from MSD to stock Dakota and made sure it don't get too warm. The car starts fine when it's cold just after running for a little while it bucks when trying to start it. Not a high compression vehicle 11.5 so that's not it. It has kicked my butt for a while. I think I may go with the 16-volt battery system and try that. What are you guys CCA for your 16Volt batteries?


6.50 @105.26
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009501
01/27/22 08:26 AM
01/27/22 08:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,532
Keymar, MD
DusterKid Offline
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I used to run dual batteries in my car as when I got into late rounds seem my battery was always dead. Alt said it was charging...after fighting the issue for many months, finally tested the alt and even though the gauge said it was charging, it actually wasn't, thus the reason the battery would be dead in the late rounds. I have since went back to 1 battery and have been problem free for years. I'm thinking that you may have another issue and by switching to 16 volt may or may not eliminate the issue. How old is the current battery? How about your coil? My dad and sister in law both had coils act up last year. My dad car would start, but was slow to fire. My sister in law coil just took a crap one morning and car wouldn't start. Sometimes its the more simple overlooked things that are the problems.

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: DusterKid] #3009506
01/27/22 08:51 AM
01/27/22 08:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927
Seaford, Va
Kindafast Offline OP
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Kindafast  Offline OP
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Seaford, Va
[quote=DusterKid]I used to run dual batteries in my car as when I got into late rounds seem my battery was always dead. Alt said it was charging...after fighting the issue for many months, finally tested the alt and even though the gauge said it was charging, it actually wasn't, thus the reason the battery would be dead in the late rounds. I have since went back to 1 battery and have been problem free for years. I'm thinking that you may have another issue and by switching to 16 volt may or may not eliminate the issue. How old is the current battery? How about your coil? My dad and sister in law both had coils act up last year. My dad car would start, but was slow to fire. My sister in law coil just took a crap one morning and car wouldn't start. Sometimes its the more simple overlooked things that are the problems. [/quote

You may be correct , I was thinking of changing to a one wire alternator but would hate to go with 12 volt if 16 volt is so much better.


6.50 @105.26
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: DusterKid] #3009507
01/27/22 08:54 AM
01/27/22 08:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,875
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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In my case I worked at the Electrical garage at FCA. So testing this stuff was nothing new to me. My stuff was voltage drop checked it front to back under load. Charging was checked at the battery itself. Alternator was upgraded (75 amp). Though its still to small. Think about it. Cooling between rounds with big fans and your water pump. 3-5 starts per round going up to staging. Then a few minutes at most with the alternator running mostly at idle or low rpm. It doesn't have time to recharge what you are taking out. Tried adding a heat shield on the starter. Pulled the starter apart and tested all components. Tried a different starter. Tried 3 different pairs of batteries. I watched guys with low compression motors, small motors who have zero issue. But when the engine is big and the compression is up there, different story. Now in the late rounds the battery(s) are no longer at the fully charged 12.6 volts. They're down to maybe 12.2volts. 12.2 is roughly 50% state of charge. Resistance goes up with heat. Now your starter needs every bit of voltage it can get. The Voltage is what gets the job done.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 01/27/22 09:20 AM.
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: dvw] #3009514
01/27/22 09:45 AM
01/27/22 09:45 AM
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Cooling between rounds is handled by my deep cycle battery I plug into when I get back to the trailer. Battery in car is pretty much used for just starting.
I prefer a single 12v battery. In a pinch their are two spares in the pickup if needed smile

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: J_BODY] #3009521
01/27/22 10:21 AM
01/27/22 10:21 AM
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Posts: 18,956
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Another advantage of running alcohol. 12 volt battery, used one wire 40.00 alternator bought off a table 8-10 years ago, (60 amp). Charge battery at home when I think about it.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: dvw] #3009544
01/27/22 11:33 AM
01/27/22 11:33 AM
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Posts: 11,375
Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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Originally Posted by dvw
In my case I worked at the Electrical garage at FCA. So testing this stuff was nothing new to me. My stuff was voltage drop checked it front to back under load. Charging was checked at the battery itself. Alternator was upgraded (75 amp). Though its still to small. Think about it. Cooling between rounds with big fans and your water pump. 3-5 starts per round going up to staging. Then a few minutes at most with the alternator running mostly at idle or low rpm. It doesn't have time to recharge what you are taking out. Tried adding a heat shield on the starter. Pulled the starter apart and tested all components. Tried a different starter. Tried 3 different pairs of batteries. I watched guys with low compression motors, small motors who have zero issue. But when the engine is big and the compression is up there, different story. Now in the late rounds the battery(s) are no longer at the fully charged 12.6 volts. They're down to maybe 12.2volts. 12.2 is roughly 50% state of charge. Resistance goes up with heat. Now your starter needs every bit of voltage it can get. The Voltage is what gets the job done.
Doug


I cranked the idle up on my car to a point to where the 1 wire “ is excited” 100% of the time the car is running….1100 - 1200 rpm or so. Running the fan and WP 3-5 minutes is all thats required to cool it off. First several rounds dont even have to use them as there is plenty of time before getting called again.
Cant stress enough…good wiring…. I have had off and on issues for years with keeping battery charged on different cars.
Two winters ago had my car professionally rewired front to back. Since then, i literally haven't had a battery charger within 100 yards of the car ever. Made 26 passes at Bowling Green two summers ago, never needed charging. Ever.
The retired electrical engineer who did the wiring told me how much of an effect doing what he did would have. He has been proven 100% correct. Car starts every time like its 16v. Spins over ultra fast, and its almost 12.5 compression. I think the 1 wire and extra amperage(95) helped as well.

Last edited by B3422W5; 01/27/22 11:35 AM.

69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3350 race weight
418 eddie headed stroker
Best so far, 10.77@122.62.. 1.44 60 ft
6.780@101 in 1/8

Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: B3422W5] #3009546
01/27/22 11:47 AM
01/27/22 11:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,396
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Tulsa OK
I run a 105 amp alternator, with a voltage sense wire going to my main power point. Coil on plug full EFI, One fan(used to be two until recently) electric water pump, two electric fuel pumps. I run a single yellow top optima battery. I drive my car to and from the track, I have made as many as 12 passes in a day having to cool between rounds and never had a worry.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009590
01/27/22 01:43 PM
01/27/22 01:43 PM
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Posts: 39,049
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Check your ignition timing at cranking RPM and see what it is scope
If it is 18 BTDC or more that may be your issue on the motor kicking back on the starter when warm or hot scope
Been there, done that realcrazy
Try having the initial, idle timing set at 17 degrees or less and the total at 34 to 36 degrees BTDC and see how that works for you up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009596
01/27/22 01:58 PM
01/27/22 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,603
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Everyone I know that's gone to a 16 volt system loves it and wishes they'd done it sooner.

Having said that, what you have SHOULD work fine.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda...8 sec street car
'69 road runner 440 w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'73 Chrysler New Yorker
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax...toy hauler
Re: dual batteries or 16 Volt ?? [Re: Kindafast] #3009603
01/27/22 02:19 PM
01/27/22 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 620
Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440 Offline
mopar
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Central TEXAS!!!!
to the OP,
Seems like you have all the right stuff, and you shouldn't be having any issues, so let me ask a few questions.

What is your timing when the engine is starting? Hopefully it's not 35 degrees locked out.

Also, did you do a voltage drop test on the starter circuit, and what are the results?

I can't tell you how many cars electrical "issues" i have fixed with a DVOM.


https://us.autologic.com/news/how-to-perform-a-voltage-drop-test

Joe
PS if the battery is in the back and you are doing the drop test, use a set of jumper cables.


Last edited by sr4440; 01/27/22 02:21 PM.

Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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