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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2959706
08/31/21 09:11 PM
08/31/21 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Melbourne , Australia
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Scotts, as well as joe and Kaylas stuff used to all be done by RWR. Seen alot of fast stuff pass through there. Pretty much all the W8 combos are small cube and one held the power per cube number until RWR was no more. They also did Lepones W8 and P5 stuff as well as alot of Aussie Pro Stock and tons of Comp stuff P5 stuff Rick did one freshen for Scott, and referred him on to RWR, as he didn't want to do engines any more. Rick Watters built some very fast stuff, I recall him getting 985hp from a P5 headed 358, which was unhead of at the time. It was for the peanut farmers that ran the ex Pro Stock Truck, was it the Mettler brothers? Do you know where Rick Watters ended up Al? Was it Elite Motorsports or someone like that?
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: LA360]
#2959710
08/31/21 09:23 PM
08/31/21 09:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Rick is currently employed by Chris McGaha and has been since closing the doors at RWR. He does everything from their Pro Stock stuff to their side by sides  He built alot of P5 stuff for Comp and Aussie Pro Stock as well. Used to be all sorts of P5 stuff lying around the shop, like pallets of it. As for the Ritter blocks there are MANY war stories about the quality back then. The truck is the Mettler Brothers yes. Rick also worked with Mopar developing the entire PST operation while working for Patterson and then the Eatons. RWR was formerly Eaton, they sold the shop to Rick.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Adrielp]
#2959711
08/31/21 09:24 PM
08/31/21 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Wouldn't slot of this depend on the class you intend to run the engine in? This is all theoretical thinking but a BB is going to be most competitive if the cubic inch is held below 360 cubic inches with the cylinder heads that are currently available. Obviously, I'm not an engine builder but my thought is you can size the bore such that the cylinder head ports can have proper air speeds and competitive flow for that particular bore size. That would mean custom crank and block, and long rods to make that work. As Al stated, there are more competitive and researched combos available. I think it would be interesting to see somebody run one in C/D, E-F/A, and a few of the wedge only super mod categories. I don't know if there is a Mopar part numbered head good enough to be run in any of the econo wedge head classes. Al, do you think the predator head would be more competitive at a smaller cubic inch(360-380ci)? Hopefully my thought process isn't too uneducated, just thinking out loud. There main thing going against it would be the block deck height. Weight of reciprocating parts, the valve train design etc. A 99/06 Hemi has a 9.0" deck height. Most P5 stuff is down around 8.3" vs a 9.98" deck height for a B series block. For the most part, the heads and induction system aren't particularly efficient, as you've mentioned, the Predator head is the only thing that would be close. The whole deal would be heavier than anything in it's class and make less power.
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2959714
08/31/21 09:31 PM
08/31/21 09:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Melbourne , Australia
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Rick is currently employed by Chris McGaha and has been since closing the doors at RWR. He does everything from their Pro Stock stuff to their side by sides He built alot of P5 stuff for Comp and Aussie Pro Stock as well. Used to be all sorts of P5 stuff lying around the shop, like pallets of it. As for the Ritter blocks there are MANY war stories about the quality back then. The truck is the Mettler Brothers yes. Rick also worked with Mopar developing the entire PST operation while working for Patterson and then the Eatons. RWR was formerly Eaton, they sold the shop to Rick. I remember when Eaton Enterprises were running, they were getting belt drives for R4's made (by Tom Huggins?), at the time Weber Belt drives were the only thing available. It's a shame RWR didn't keep his doors open, but running a business isn't for everyone I guess. My apologies if I've gone on too much, I don't get to talk about Comp stuff very often, most of my friends have no interest in N/A racing
Last edited by LA360; 08/31/21 09:33 PM.
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: 340Cuda]
#2959881
09/01/21 12:33 PM
09/01/21 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Las Vegas
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Does Rick do any outside work at Southwest Performance?
I sent them an email about some dyno time and never got a response.
Yes this has been a fun thread, thank you Alan and Al for all the info. No I dont believe they do any outside work, unless you are a friend of the family. Always happy to talk NA stuff. The Vette is basically an old Aussie Pro Stock Type engine. Well except the single 4, wet sump, alternator, and backed by a proflite 
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2960133
09/01/21 09:36 PM
09/01/21 09:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Melbourne , Australia
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Does Rick do any outside work at Southwest Performance?
I sent them an email about some dyno time and never got a response.
Yes this has been a fun thread, thank you Alan and Al for all the info. No I dont believe they do any outside work, unless you are a friend of the family. Always happy to talk NA stuff. The Vette is basically an old Aussie Pro Stock Type engine. Well except the single 4, wet sump, alternator, and backed by a proflite It's a Little Chief engine Al?
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: LA360]
#2960272
09/02/21 11:52 AM
09/02/21 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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It's a Little Chief engine Al?
Yes it is although the heads are a long way from where they started It runs well for what it is for sure. Smallish intake valve compared to many we race against back east. We did manage to set the Irwindale track record by a tenth and win the last WCNA10.5 race there. But we hurt a piston in the process, its a fuel thing which we are remedying now.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2962357
09/08/21 11:38 PM
09/08/21 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Melbourne , Australia
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You're still allowed to run leaded race fuel over there? We can only run Unleaded over here now. Most guys are running either VP or ETS race fuel from what I have seen.
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: LA360]
#2962434
09/09/21 11:00 AM
09/09/21 11:00 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,509
Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
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Tulsa, Oklahoma
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You're still allowed to run leaded race fuel over there? We can only run Unleaded over here now. Most guys are running either VP or ETS race fuel from what I have seen. Yes, no problems getting leaded race fuel in the US yet....
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: 340Cuda]
#2962451
09/09/21 12:01 PM
09/09/21 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Yep still leaded race fuel over here. We just run a highly oxygenated variety. It has a very small tuning window and has bit us for the second and last time.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: reknapp52]
#2962595
09/09/21 09:03 PM
09/09/21 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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I have a spreadsheet that tells me the appropriate minimum cross section required. Pipe Max is also very helpful in this regard.
Some engine builder or cylinder head guys will just do the math.
That is just going to be the starting point though. Darin Morgan described himself as a velocity manager, rather than a cylinder head designer. I thought that was very apt.
As we are talking hyperthetically here, if you were wanting to use a BBM style head casting as an example, you would be trying to get a pro port style casting (very small ports, no guide work or chambers), or doing a lot of welding.
Alan Jones
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: LA360]
#2962951
09/11/21 01:06 PM
09/11/21 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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As stated PipeMax is a good start but wouldn't not call it a be all end all for a comp deal, Having said that it was designed by a guy who has built a lot of record holding and championship winning Comp stuff, Larry Meaux. He also built the Hemi I have lying in the garage that I would love to rehome. For us we rely on someone with years of experience with this stuff. In our case its Tom Slawko and Dave Hughes.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3007815
01/22/22 11:45 AM
01/22/22 11:45 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 409
Cascade, CO
reknapp52
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
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Posts: 409
Cascade, CO
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Al, I'm not even sure what the 99/06 Hemi engine is, or what it's based on. I assume the Pro Stock motors that were being ran by V. Gaines, Derek Kramer, etc? Are parts still available for those combos? I occasionally see some of those engines for sale. For arguments sake, we would be looking at Econo Dragster or Econo Altered.
Last edited by reknapp52; 01/22/22 11:47 AM.
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: reknapp52]
#3007838
01/22/22 01:03 PM
01/22/22 01:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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99/06 Hemi is the pro stockstuff. And parts on not as easy to come by as they were at one time. D7 has a couple of them competitng on occasion still. Usually in the lower 499" range. There is also the P5 stuff which was pro stock truck stuff and its even harder to come by, and is a SB. Scott Mcclay runs a W8 small block as does the Mozeris family.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?
[Re: SCDaytona]
#3008136
01/23/22 12:11 PM
01/23/22 12:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,509
Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
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Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Has anyone built a over 400" P7 motor making over 1K Horsepower?
I also saw Scott Gove SS/AM Daytona has a X comp motor in it which looks like a hemi small block. Not sure what it is but he has been in the 7's consistently now and holds the record as well. ,. Last I knew Scott Gove was running a R4/P5 motor about 358 CI. I saw one of his engines being freshen up at Patterson-Elite a few years ago. It is fast. I think Ritter makes a block that will accept P7 heads, might be able to get over 400 ci with it. I think with the R5 short deck block it would be tough but don't know for sure.
Last edited by 340Cuda; 01/23/22 12:16 PM.
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